220 replies to this topic

[Sasha Steelsong]

For me it has everything to do with his attraction to Catelyn and their age difference (that he's old enough to have been attracted to her mom) than with Sansa's age specifically.

If Littlefinger hadn't spend his youth having naughty thoughts about Catelyn I don't think I'd be half as icked out, but he did and now he seems to want her daughter (a girl who could have theoretically been his).  Add to that the generational age difference and it only compounds the problem.  Yes there are other large age differences but I either find them equally disturbing (Frey and his 8th wife) or don't feel that the age difference is as big as the father/daughter one that is set up with Littlefinger and Sansa, which is what makes his attaction extra creepy.  But again for me it is mostly the fact that he's been bragging about taking her mother's maidenhead and still wants her.

Edited by atpthornton, 02 July 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[Tagganaro]

In a world full of creeps, LF takes the cake.  Drogo and Tyrion also catch a lot of crap for what they do, it's just that LF takes it to another level.  Outside of all the creepy father/daugher pervy undertones, LF is trying to use Sansa as a surrogate for Catelyn.  That might be even sicker.  He's literally playing with this girls life to try and get back at Cat for rejecting him, or if he's not angry at Cat he's just using Sansa as a substitute for her to try and win over Cat again by flirting with Sansa.  And he's doing this all at the same time as he's trying to use her to win the Game of Thrones.

Even though Drogo is a rapist he still seemed to have some genuine feelings for and care for Dany.  Even though Tyrion is a rapist as well he genuinely wants to protect Sansa from Joffrey.  What the heck does LF want?  He just wants to have sex with Sansa and use her to gain some power.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Tagganaro, on 02 July 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

He just wants to have sex with Sansa and use her to gain some power.

and consent on sansa's side is optional for LF

[Kittykatknits]

StannisBamfatheon, on 02 July 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

My bad I just hadn't seen any topics relating to Drogo/Dany and just how....well a little bothersome there situation was.  It was one of only a handful of things in ASOIAF that I just really couldn't justify in my modern 21st century mind.  I agree though with the overriding sentiment that Littlefinger's attraction to Sansa's (un)dead mother coupled with his newfound attraction for her makes the whole situation very icky.  Somethings in the story I can't sequester as "oh well it's only GRRM" and I have to think their pretty odd.  Fictional work shouldn't be seen as biographical allegory or anything but I do ponder just how much of weird guy GRRM can be to create some of this material.

I agree about Dany/Drogo. Martin has described it as a love story and I've never been comfortable with that. She was sold in to marriage and I don't see how it could be looked at any other way. But, I see the 21st century morals argument come up quite a bit.

hockema56, on 02 July 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Does Dany reach the age of 18 by book 5? I'm still imagining here as a 15-16 year old girl...

No, she started at 13 years of age. About three years have passed, making her around 16 or so at the end of Dance.

Reznak mo Reznak, on 02 July 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

His most overt act was when he kissed her. I'm not convinced he is fully making a play for her. I think he has all the creepy feelings that people described, but he is choosing to focus on the game more than her. I think when he kissed her, it was only because he knew Lysa was watching, and knew how she would react.

Except that he has made her kiss him when no one is around to see it, more than once. He also makes her sit in his lap and has put his hands on her breast. What would you call that?

She has had sex with a grand total of two men her entire life, one of those men being her husband. She has every right to choose her own sexual partners. Female desire is just as valid as male desire. Dany is under absolutely zero obligation to return any form of affection from another man, regardless of how much they care for her. No woman is required to do so. A man's desire is not worth more than a woman's, to even imply that is the case is slut shaming.

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 02 July 2012 - 07:22 PM.
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[Ser Ingolf]

The reason Drogo (and Tyrion) get a conditional pass is because they are conducting themselves in accordance with their societal norms.  In Tyrion's case, he's actually ordered to marry Sansa and get her with child.  So it's not so much that they get a pass as it is that the blame for their actions falls on their societies as a whole.  Even if you consider that a cop-out, you have to admit that Viserys and Illyrio at least share the blame for Dany and Tywin shares the blame for what almost happened to Sansa.  The hate is diluted because it's shared.

LF stands out partly because he's not pursuing a culturally accepted course with Sansa, but mostly because of the father/daughter dynamic he's established with her as well as the belief that she's a proxy for his unfulfilled love for Cat.

[hockema56]

Braavosi Sealady, on 02 July 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

In book 5 (ADwD) Dany is around 15/16...

I know this, I was being facetious with the last poster, thanks anyways though

[total1402]

hockema56, on 02 July 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

I know this, I was being facetious with the last poster, thanks anyways though

Aw, I quite liked you actually.     

[David C. Hunter]

It isnt any more creepy than anything else in the series, in fact its quite tame IMO.

[total1402]

hockema56, on 02 July 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Again, I'm not slighting her for being attracted to them, no one can really blame her for that, which I explicitly stated in my above post.  I'm slighting her because she's an idiot. End of story.

Yeah I'am being far too harsh and judgemental of Dany.

[mcb]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 02 July 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

Another thing -- Drogo had the courtesy to die in the first book, and he died by Dany's hand.  So he was karmically punished for marrying a 13-year-old, a very satisfying end imo.

And she mourns him sincerely. Clearly she didn't consider him buying her to be a capital offense.
That's the major difference between Dany's and Sansa's situations: as we have the privilege of glimpses directly into characters' minds, we know that Dany was quite fond of Drogo, while Sansa is in her personal hell.

[total1402]

Winter, on 02 July 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

What country do you live in and how do I get there?

Daario is not "extremely violent", he like Bronn is amoral. This could be a problem if she were looking to marry him or have a long term relationship but since she isn't, it really isn't a problem.

Besides, the point isn't whether or not Daario is good enough for her, the point is he makes her happy becauase he is her choice. Now, I can argue that liking, say Black Sabbath is a sign of terrible taste in music but I can't call the people who like it "dumb fucks" just because they're taste doesn't mesh with mine.

Relative to how wealthy she is and her position of influence she can get whoever she wants. Remember when Xaro offers the services of those dancers?

Yeah but Bronns funny. Also really his behaviour would be considered psychopathic by todays standards. Chopping the heads off your fellow mercs, suggesting murdering hundreds of people and children.

Yes but she should see that his rod is what makes her happy, not his amazingly charismatic skills and there are lots of rods out their. Her obsession with this one unexceptional, even cheesy guy is weird.

[Summers Dragon]

To the OP, you know i've pondered this too. Never mind Petyr's original attraction to Cat, but if we are going to call Baelish  a creeper shouldn't all men going after girls under 15 years old be called creepers? I say this because I too see the lack of Rhaegar getting his share of the pedobear stamps. Lets see if the ToHH was in 281 AL, and Rhaegar was born in 259 he was 22 depending if his nameday had passed. Lyanna was born in 268 AL making her 13, depending also on her nameday.  Still seems kinda pedobear to me for a 22 yearold to be crusin a 13 year old. So can  we officially call him RHAEGAR THE RAPIST? Or Rhaegar "Strongarm" Targaryen? How about Rhaegar "Your  No's Be Damned" Targaryen?

[mcb]

(signature)

Kittykatknits, on 02 July 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

I believe in Nedbert more than I do R+L = J. You will never be able to convince me it is not true.

I also fully support the theory that S + S = ?; time will prove me correct.

If by S+S you mean Stannis and Salladhor Saan, then I'm behind you.

[Cadiva]

As for the OP: the thing which creeps me about LF and Sansa is that he is using her as a replacement for Catelyn. I have no issues with age appropriateness, it's set in a world which follows medieval values and most well bred teenage girls were married and reproducing by the age of 12 and usually with men at least 20 years older than them.

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 02 July 2012 - 08:20 PM.
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[David Selig]

Well, for one thing, LF obviously had a crush on Sansa when she was 11 (it's pretty blatant through AGOT), mostly based on the fact she looks like her mother who he used to have a crush on. if that's not super creepy, I don't know what is.

Not that Drogo isn't a creep, but at least Dany was 13.

Edited by David Selig, 02 July 2012 - 07:10 PM.

[Kittykatknits]

mcb, on 02 July 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

(signature)


If by S+S you mean Stannis and Salladhor Saan, then I'm behind you.

Nope. I'm more a fan of Stannis/Daovs, especially after watching season 2 of the show. S  + S is Sansa and Sandor. It's the result of a conversation on the Hound thread a few days ago.

[mcb]

SummersDragon, on 02 July 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

To the OP, you know i've pondered this too. Never mind Petyr's original attraction to Cat, but if we are going to call Baelish  a creeper shouldn't all men going after girls under 15 years old be called creepers? I say this because I too see the lack of Rhaegar getting his share of the pedobear stamps. Lets see if the ToHH was in 281 AL, and Rhaegar was born in 259 he was 22 depending if his nameday had passed. Lyanna was born in 268 AL making her 13, depending also on her nameday.  Still seems kinda pedobear to me for a 22 yearold to be crusin a 13 year old. So can  we officially call him RHAEGAR THE RAPIST? Or Rhaegar "Strongarm" Targaryen? How about Rhaegar "Your  No's Be Damned" Targaryen?

Primarily because we know so little about Rhaegar and Lyanna. You can choose to fill those huge blank spots with whatever you like, including Pedobear, but it'll still be assumptions. While with Littlefinger we know for a fact he's one creepy fucker.

[Daidalos]

I certainly agree with what everyone has said about Littlefinger's behaviour with respect to Sansa: it's perverted. It seems to me that the worst aspects of the Littlefinger/Sansa relationship include the manipulation, the twisted father/daughter/lover-dynamic, as well as the fact that Littlefinger is responsible for inflicting a lot of pain on the Starks. However, his actual, physical actions aren't that horrible: LF kisses Sansa and asks for kisses in return, touches her breast once, has her sit in his lap. I wonder, can the sum total of Littlefinger's behaviour around Sansa be considered WORSE than that of the Westerosi husband who claims his rights, even though his wife is unwilling (e.g. Robert and Cersei)? Truly, examples of the latter abound in Westeros. While it wouldn't be considered a crime according to Westerosi custom, by modern standards it would be rape; as bad as LF's behaviour is, it rises to the level of molestation, but so far no further.

I don't mean to imply that we shouldn't condemn LF for what he does to Sansa, but I think a lot of other characters are probably guilty of worse sexual crimes.

[total1402]

Winter, on 02 July 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

How come no one barges into a Tyron discussion and accuse people talking about his being discriminated against of turning everything into an ablist argument, eh?

It is not a difficult concept and can be understood without reading the Feminine Mystique or the Female Eunuch:
Shaming people based on their sexual activity is  wrong. Bad. Unacceptable. Not done.
The number or type of partners is not an indicator of a person's morality.

Yet is done by everyone and universal. Those sorts of judgements are made by everyone and we're not isolated islands. We care about what people say about us and no matter how much we condemn that as immoral it is what society is. People do judge you for this behaviour and they do mock you. Indeed, its exactly the sort of gossip that people yearn to flay eachother with all the time and is precisely used as an indicator of personal morality. You can't ignore that thats how it is?

Edited by total1402, 02 July 2012 - 07:28 PM.

[Winter's Knight]

total1402, on 02 July 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Yet is done by everyone and universal. Those sorts of judgements are made by everyone and we're not isolated islands. We care about what people say about us and no matter how much we condemn that as immoral it is what society is. People do judge you for this behaviour and they do mock you. Indeed, its exactly the sort of gossip that people use to flay you all the time and is precisely used as an indicator of personal morality. You can't ignore that thats how it is.

You know what, it doesn't matter to me if all of society makes these judgements-I will not do so, nor will I hesitate to call out others who do so.

If your best argument is "everybody does it", then clearly I have credited you with far more maturity than you currently possess.