370 replies to this topic

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Is there a large difference concerning Stannis' use of dark magic (shadowbabies), and Dany's use of dark magic (sacrificing the magi to birth her dragons)?

ETA: It should read, "Is there a large difference concerning Stannis' use of blood magic (shadowbabies), and Dany's use of blood magic (sacrificing the magi to birth her dragons)?"

Thanks, richard_ba

Edited by Lady Tippy Wolfsbane, 06 July 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[JKeats]

Creating a shadow assassin hurts only the man contributing the "life force" needed.  Hatching dragons from petrified eggs requires the death of a person.

Shadow assassins have only one purpose: to kill, and only one target per shadow (or so it seems anyway).  Dragons (at least of the type the Valyrians and Targaryens are associated with) are magical weapons of mass destruction.  They also have only one purpose: to kill and terrorize whole populations.

[Dr. Pepper]

Very good thread, Lady Tippy Wolfsbane!

I think dark magic of any sort is bad.  It's very easy for me to think Dany's was worse because she had to burn a woman alive to birth the dragons while Stannis only had to share his semen and shadow.  However, I don't think there should be a point system on which is worse or better because they are both just as bad.  We certainly don't view violent crimes on a point system.  Murder is murder regardless if the victim died with little pain or died screaming in agony.

[Sevumar]

JKeats, on 05 July 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

Creating a shadow assassin hurts only the man contributing the "life force" needed.  Hatching dragons from petrified eggs requires the death of a person.

Not only this, but ask yourself how Stannis's actions would be viewed if he'd hired a Faceless Man to kill Renly instead of the shadow assassin. Other than the revulsion factor about how the assassin was created, this act is little different from any other assassination.

Edited by Sevumar, 05 July 2012 - 10:02 PM.

[Housefires]

I think all magic is inherently dark. Has there been any magic that can be described as 'good'? It's all fire and blood and ice and shadows. And warging, the worst of it all.

[ARYa_Nym]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Nk did something similar with his undead queen. It was said that when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul which sounds like what Stannis is doing with Melisandre.

Sevumar, on 05 July 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Not only this, but ask yourself how Stannis's actions would be viewed if he'd hired a Faceless Man to kill Renly instead of the shadow assassin. Other than the revulsion factor about how the assassin was created, this act is little different from any other assassination.

Similar to Euron I guess.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Faint, on 05 July 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

Why should she have to pay for her dragons beyond what she has already paid? Because of the boy that Drogon killed?

Stannis pays for the shadow babies with his 'life-force', while Dany paid for the magic used to 'save' Drogo with Rhaego. I don't recall her paying personally for the magic used to hatch the dragons...

Gingerly Grumkin, on 05 July 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

@Apple/Tippy

I don't believe in the gods, but I do believe in magic. And just like they say about god, magic works mysteriously. The Wolf and Stag were dead and Robert and Ned dropped.
But that's not that good of an argument, nor do I really care about it. Dark magic? Prey what's light magic? All I know is Renly defied his king almost in open battle.
But the Dragons? First of all, because they were born in an ill appealing manner they should die or live in a cave? Then bring in Tommen, why stop there actually Jon and all bastards too!
And I see nothing wrong with the pyre. Fire&Blood+She killed your husband and son= Burn that Bitch

I'm not saying anything bad should happen to the dragons, only that Dany should 'pay' for them.

[Sevumar]

ARYa_Nym, on 05 July 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the Nk did something similar with his undead queen. It was said that when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul which sounds like what Stannis is doing with Melisandre.

There are some striking parallels, but I think that the "gave her his soul" part in the Night's King tale indicates a sort of thralldom to his queen. Stannis uses Melisandre, and she uses him, but he is still very much his own person with his own goals and his own thoughts. I still don't think he buys into the Azor Ahai thing and he's just using it as a means to an end.

[Sevumar]

Lady Tippy Wolfsbane, on 05 July 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Stannis pays for the shadow babies with his 'life-force', while Dany paid for the magic used to 'save' Drogo with Rhaego. I don't recall her paying personally for the magic used to hatch the dragons...

I don't think Rhaego was truly the price of the magic used to put the horse's consciousness into Drogo. He was not a part of the equation Mirri could count on and I think MMD's telling Dany that he was the price is a bit of rubbing salt in the wound after what Jorah did.

Edited by Sevumar, 05 July 2012 - 10:09 PM.

[Apple Martini]

I think it's disingenuous to say that Stannis' shadowbabies are evil and show him to be unworthy of power, but Dany's dragons are badass and awesome and omgz you guys let's burn some shit down!1!1!eleven1!!!

I don't think you'll find many — or any — reasonable Stannis supporters who would say, "Damn I wish he'd make another shadowbaby!" Most of us, from what I've read, like Stannis in spite of the shadowbabies, not because of them, and started to like Stannis and support him when he stopped using them.

[ARYa_Nym]

Sevumar, on 05 July 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

There are some striking parallels, but I think that the "gave her his soul" part in the Night's King tale indicates a sort of thralldom to his queen. Stannis uses Melisandre, and she uses him, but he is still very much his own person with his own goals and his own thoughts. I still don't think he buys into the Azor Ahai thing and he's just using it as a means to an end.

She's draining his health like a succubus and he allows it.

[Sevumar]

ARYa_Nym, on 05 July 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

She's draining his health like a succubus and he allows it.

It sounds like that's at end after the Penrose shadow assassination, though. He's too weak to power another one. That may be part of the reason why Melisandre tries to put the moves on Jon in ADWD.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Housefires, on 05 July 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

I think all magic is inherently dark. Has there been any magic that can be described as 'good'? It's all fire and blood and ice and shadows. And warging, the worst of it all.

Nice point, I hadn't really thought about that until now. The Starks may be into some heavy blood magic as well...

[Sevumar]

I don't think magic is inherently good or evil. It's merely a high-stakes tool that is chaotic and costly.

[ARYa_Nym]

Sevumar, on 05 July 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

It sounds like that's at end after the Penrose shadow assassination, though. He's too weak to power another one. That may be part of the reason why Melisandre tries to put the moves on Jon in ADWD.

She is still his true queen though. She may try again later on if she can't get it from someone else. He even left her with his family and I've long suspected that she's going to conjure up a stone beast that will eat Shireen.

[Dr. Pepper]

Housefires, on 05 July 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

I think all magic is inherently dark. Has there been any magic that can be described as 'good'? It's all fire and blood and ice and shadows. And warging, the worst of it all.

I am curious, why is warging the worst of all?

[Sevumar]

ARYa_Nym, on 05 July 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

She is still his true queen though. She may try again later on if she can't get it from someone else. He even left her with his family and I've long suspected that she's going to conjure up a stone beast that will eat Shireen.

I actually thought more along these lines until I read her chapter in Dance. There, she doesn't really seem to be a bloodthirsty, power-hungry, mysterious wizard she's portrayed as for the first few books. Curiously, mention of king's blood and stone dragons is entirely absent from her thoughts in that chapter and indeed, for most of Dance.

[danm_999]

Housefires, on 05 July 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

I think all magic is inherently dark. Has there been any magic that can be described as 'good'? It's all fire and blood and ice and shadows. And warging, the worst of it all.

Yeah I've noticed this too. We've yet to see a form of magic that isn't based on some terrible cost.

Bloodmagic is quite nasty. Warging is the mental domination of living creatures. Even the power of the Weirwoods and greenseeing seems to be fueled by blood sacrifice.

[ARYa_Nym]

Sevumar, on 05 July 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

I actually thought more along these lines until I read her chapter in Dance. There, she doesn't really seem to be a bloodthirsty, power-hungry, mysterious wizard she's portrayed as for the first few books. Curiously, mention of king's blood and stone dragons is entirely absent from her thoughts in that chapter and indeed, for most of Dance.

She seems misguided which might be even worse. The road to hell being paved with good intentions shouldn't only be applied to Dany.

[Sevumar]

ARYa_Nym, on 05 July 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

She seems misguided which might be even worse. The road to hell being paved with good intentions shouldn't only be applied to Dany.

Just about everyone in ASOIAF is guilty of that one. Dany sticks out in terms of scale and ignorance, though.