370 replies to this topic

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Sevumar, on 05 July 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

I don't think magic is inherently good or evil. It's merely a high-stakes tool that is chaotic and costly.

So maybe instead of "dark magic" we should use the term "blood magic", since that seems to be the only magic used in ASOIAF.

Dr. Pepper, on 05 July 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

I am curious, why is warging the worst of all?

I would only consider it bad in terms of warging people.

[Winter's Knight]

Dr. Pepper, on 05 July 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

I am curious, why is warging the worst of all?

Possibly because you're taking control of another being? Personally, this one disturbs me the most, especially after reading the prologue for Dance Bran warging Hodor.

[Apple Martini]

Winter, on 05 July 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

Possibly because you're taking control of another being? Personally, this one disturbs me the most, especially after reading the prologue for Dance Bran warging Hodor.

And I don't think you'll find anyone cheering Bran on for doing so, or hoping that he wargs another human being.

[ARYa_Nym]

IDK if warging is the worst but it can be extremely evil and violating. The animals and humans can and do resist. The direwolves may like it but that's not true of all animals.  I favor an ending where magic is eradicated from the world. If dragons have to go then so should ice magic and old gods magic. No more dragons and no more wargs. The direwolves are going extinct anyway.

[Sevumar]

Winter, on 05 July 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

Possibly because you're taking control of another being? Personally, this one disturbs me the most, especially after reading the prologue for Dance Bran warging Hodor.

Warging a human being is a big breach of ethics. I'm not troubled so much by the use of the ability on animals, particularly those who are companions like the direwolves of the Stark children.

[Winter's Knight]

Apple Martini, on 05 July 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

And I don't think you'll find anyone cheering Bran on for doing so, or hoping that he wargs another human being.

I didn't say anyone was, did I? You're so twitchy.

[Associate Maester]

I don't view the magic as "good" or "evil." It is a sword without a hilt--you can wield it, but you're going to get cut in the process. In the world of ASOIAF I view both the dragons and shadow assassins\shadows in general as tools. The ethical issues come from how people use them and create them. Shadow assassins saved a lot of lives (not honourable, but effective). Dragons are an overwhelming force (that are hard to control. I'm waiting to see how that whole dragon horn thing works out.)

I think if we're going to talk about magic as dark\unethical we need to go beyond Stannis and Dany. How about Bran's warging of Hodor and warging of humans in general? What if the Others turn out to be the enemy they are assumed to be--would Mel using shadows against them be considered "ethical" because said terrible shadows would be against an inhuman opponent?

Edited for spelling issue.

Edited by Dreadfort81, 05 July 2012 - 10:25 PM.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

ARYa_Nym, on 05 July 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

IDK if warging is the worst but it can be extremely evil and violating. The animals and humans can and do resist. The direwolves may like it but that's not true of all animals.  I favor an ending where magic is eradicated from the world. If dragons have to go then so should ice magic and old gods magic. No more dragons and no more wargs. The direwolves are going extinct anyway.

I don't believe the dragons are bad, and can actually be/have been a great instrument in defeating the Others... assuming they're no so good.

[Dr. Pepper]

Winter, on 05 July 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

Possibly because you're taking control of another being? Personally, this one disturbs me the most, especially after reading the prologue for Dance Bran warging Hodor.

Bran warging Hodor is very disturbing for me.  However, I'm not bothered at all with the warging of animals.  Skin changing seems to be a very inherent trait, much like stupidity or intelligence.  None of these are bad, but there are bad people who use them for evil means.  A highly intelligent person is not always going to do the right thing just as a skingchanger is not always going to do the right thing.

[Apple Martini]

Winter, on 05 July 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

I didn't say anyone was, did I? You're so twitchy.

My point (which I thought was pretty clear but I guess not) is that you don't see people rooting for Bran to warg humans or Stannis to make a shadowbaby army the way some people want Dany to burn anyone who looks at her sideways with dragons. There's a very real pattern here that some dark magic is OK and should be encouraged — Dany destroying human beings and cities with her dragons — while other dark magic is evil and denotes poor character — Bran warging Hodor and Stannis using shadowbabies. It's a double standard.

Edited by Apple Martini, 05 July 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[Winter's Knight]

Sevumar, on 05 July 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Warging a human being is a big breach of ethics. I'm not troubled so much by the use of the ability on animals, particularly those who are companions like the direwolves of the Stark children.

Some animals, such as bears, seem to suffer greatly if warged:

Quote

The bear hated him, had raged each time he wore her skin or climbed upon her back.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Winter, on 05 July 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

I didn't say anyone was, did I? You're so twitchy.

I think it's residual from the other thread.

[Apple Martini]

Winter, on 05 July 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Some animals, such as bears, seem to suffer greatly if warged.

Varamyr uses skinchanging as a form of subjugation, whereas with the Starks and their direwolves, it's a deeply felt, unique, personal bond. It depends on the person and how they choose to exercise their ability.

[Castel]

What I posted in the other thread:

Quote

Honestly I don't see the difference between shadowbabies and drones. I think that this whole dark  magic divide is just baggage from other fantasy series. I don't know where the dark magic is  objectively evil comes from.  This isn't Star Wars, I don't see how we can buy into the gray all the time and then turn around and change when there's little to no evidence that magic allows us to see the world differently. As far as I can tell, things are judged by their possible results. The result of shadowbabies: a strike against a specific target -a traitor- with no collateral damage. The results of dragons: significant collateral damage, from Quentyn to that child to the stadium. The objectives are also important imo.

Like I said, the whole "black magic" concept is just weird and seems to have little basis. Results matter, and as far as I can tell, shadowbabies require only Stannis to fuel them and hit their target with 0 other casualties. Dragons...no so much.

The argument I've seen the most often is that it's a sneaky underhanded way of killing people. I respond by saying that Renly had no right to a fair fight, he was a traitor, and a thief and was rewarded as such. There was no reason for Stannis to risk his life or his mens for some bullshit idea of "honor" when Renly clearly was doing what he wanted.

Edited by Castel, 05 July 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think it's animal cruelty. Sure the Stark's animals like it but that could be because they formed a relationship first. The ravens Bran warged resisted him at first and it's well-known that Varamyr's beasts hated him and tried to kill him. They are wild animals who aren't meant to be controlled.

[Winter's Knight]

Apple Martini, on 05 July 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

Varamyr uses skinchanging as a form of subjugation, whereas with the Starks and their direwolves, it's a deeply felt, unique, personal bond. It depends on the person and how they choose to exercise their ability.

Wolves and dogs seem to be the exceptions though, at least according to Haggon-cats for instance are always ready to turn against you.

And there  is still the principle behind warging-it involves subjecting another creature's will to your own at the end of the day.

[Sevumar]

Winter, on 05 July 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Some animals, such as bears, seem to suffer greatly if warged:

I don't doubt that they suffer, and when possible, it is better that warging be an expression of a personal bond between warg and companion. But in a world where animals are killed for food, used as weapons, and pose a significant threat to human safety, their experience of warging isn't that big of a consideration.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Apple Martini, on 05 July 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

My point (which I thought was pretty clear but I guess not) is that you don't see people rooting for Bran to warg humans or Stannis to make a shadowbaby army the way some people want Dany to burn anyone who looks at her sideways with dragons. There's a very real pattern here that some dark magic is OK and should be encouraged — Dany destroying human beings and cities with her dragons — while other dark magic is evil and denotes poor character — Bran warging Hodor and Stannis using shadowbabies. It's a double standard.

Yep, its residual...and I feel you,

My issue with the whole "MMD deserved it" line of thinking is that MMD told Dany that no one was to come in the tent, so how can she be blamed for what happened? No one has ever been able to answer this question! So considering MMD wasn't a 'bad guy" it is an extreme double standard.

[danm_999]

Winter, on 05 July 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

And there  is still the principle behind warging-it involves subjecting another creature's will to your own at the end of the day.

Sometimes at the cost of the creature's self preservation instincts.

I can't imagine Coldhands elk would have been ok with hanging around Summer and walking until it died.

[Dr. Pepper]

Dreadfort81, on 05 July 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

I think if we're going to talk about magic as dark\unethical we need to go beyond Stannis and Dany. How about Bran's warging of Hodor and warging of humans in general? What if the Others turn out to be the enemy they are assumed to be--would Mel using shadows against them be considered "ethical" because said terrible shadows would be against an inhuman opponent?

This actually gets into very interesting territory as it's a discussion dealing with using magic against magic.  I'll have to think on this.

Winter, on 05 July 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Some animals, such as bears, seem to suffer greatly if warged:

I almost feel like perhaps this is an unpopular thought, but I don't consider this to be animal cruelty.  Perhaps my view of this is because I grew up on a small ranch where I dealt with a non-magical issue of controlling animals on a daily basis.  A horse will certainly rage when you first start to break it to saddle.