370 replies to this topic

[WindOfWinter]

She sure did, when she was blind to help her see.

[butterbumps!]

I have a question.   Does anyone have a thorough hypothesis as to what constitutes "Ice" magic?   We seem to have a fairly thorough idea of fire magic; it draws on life force (blood or sexual sacrifice), it can raise the dead, glass candles enable information flow across distances, it appears to have a form of behavior control (Mel's ruby), has a sort of life-extending power, and it involves prophesy (seeing the future).  Power seems to be a strong correlative to "fire" magic, as per Jon's observations of Mel's "power," the absolute oppression by the Valyrians through dragons and spells, the assumed power of Dany as owner of dragons, and Moqorro's musings on magic.  

I suppose it's safe to assume that the Others and the sub zero mist and winter are part of "Ice" magic, but what is the actual delineation of "ice magic"? The way Mel's ruby behaves seems a short step from warging, and the glass candles and prophesies of fire are pretty similar to greenseeing in effect.  I suppose, I don't quite understand where "natural magic", i.e. the CotF's magic end and ice and fire begins?

I do think that whatever "ice" is will be the flip side of the same coin on which "fire" resides, that both are equally destructive and threatening, but I suppose, does anyone have a good theory on the line of demarcation between "natural" magic and "fire and ice"?    Are both "fire and ice" just two expressions of the same extreme abuse of natural magic?

Edited by butterbumps!, 08 July 2012 - 07:11 PM.

[Lady Storm]

butterbumps!, on 08 July 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

I do think that whatever "ice" is will be the flip side of the same coin on which "fire" resides, that both are equally destructive and threatening, but I suppose, does anyone have a good theory on the line of demarcation between "natural" magic and "fire and ice"? Are both "fire and ice" just two expressions of the same extreme abuse of natural magic?

I believe it's the latter.
And not really what one would call a good theory, but I don't really think there are different types of magic, only different ways to use it, or better, access it. Both the fire and the ice magic seem to be growing stronger simultaneously, and I don't think this is a coincidence. Magic seems to have a life of it's own, and you can access it via a candle, a flame or a red tree, but you're merely using elements to communicate, like twitter, fb or e-mail - the underlying process is still the same. So if the magic grows stronger on its own, then we cannot really talk about different magic, only different mediums. Going even more crazy-meta - if two things seem to correlate so strongly, then they are either the same, or a part of a even stronger force. Now the only thing I see stronger than magic is God, not in the drowned god or seven faced god sense, but more of a.. general balance in the world? GRRM seems to be strong on Karma and balance.

I have a little crackpot: that aside from whatever else happened, for the Stark kids to develop.. wargism? there have at least two blood sacrifices been made, maybe three. Unlike Varamyr, who seems to be born a warg, the Starks haven't really developed their abilities until the wolves came, and at least Robb and Jon had enough time to do so (and probably even Sansa and Arya) .
The kids seem to gain their ability with the direwolfs, and we know of two sacrifices being made there - the direwolf and the stag (the third possibly being the deserter, although I'm not really convinced of that). Now these weren't necessarily willing sacrifices, but they did involve blood and a strong goal from a somewhat-magical creature (and the stag seems to be quite a special specimen as well)
Hell, if Drogo can be a horse, than Bran can be a mother-wolf as well.

Lykos, on 08 July 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Maybe the beings, a skinchanger changes into, sense the previously shared beings and are uncomfortable if they´re not used to their type or even fear them.The third raven Bran tries might have been used to a warg who shared a wolf, the woman that is now dead.

How old do these ravens get?

Could be.
In RL, quite old, for an animal. Like, 30 or something?

LuisDantas, on 08 July 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Didn't Arya warg a cat in ADWD?

This is implied, true - I should have said willingly.

[WindOfWinter]

Well, there's proof that 'ice magic' also raises the dead. The people brought back with the ol' firey kiss, however, retain their constitution in a way while the Wights have been described as thralls to the Others. They retain some (maybe all) memories and knowledge but are no longer under their own control.
When Mel sees BR and Bran she identifies them as the enemy. She strongly believes that. I think warging and greendreams would be 'ice magic' but never even considered that concept before reading your post. I don't know if labeling R'hollor as fire magic and The Others as ice magic makes sense to me as a concept for a reason I can't really explain. Feels awkward.
I just thought of magic as magic, with bloodmagic being a double edged sword, the price not being worth it or somehow cheapening the prize. I think any kind of magic can be used for good or bad (if such concepts even exist in this world) depending on the person using it.
A lot of people here seem very opposed to the use of any magic. A lot of posters have made great points as to why magic is bad for individuals as well as large groups. Crackpot: could Varys be working to rid the world of magic? Would people be better off without it? Magic has been suppressed and oppressed, this series deals with the return of magic for a reason. I don't think it represents slavery all the time (there are a few examples where clearly it does), I think it represents the power humans have to do 'impossible' things and conquer nature and their own limitations and destinies, and the price of that on society when people use this 'gift' in responsible or irresponsible ways.

[tze]

butterbumps!, on 08 July 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

I have a question.   Does anyone have a thorough hypothesis as to what constitutes "Ice" magic?

Delineating "ice magic" is difficult because we haven't really seen much ice magic. (This isn't surprising, I suppose, given that most of the overt magic has been in Essos, a place of extreme heat, and the Others haven't been onscreen very much.) GRRM said something very interesting here: http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Quote

Shaw: Do you know what substance an Other sword is made from.

Martin: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.

It seems like a safe bet that the Others' magic is based in ice, in a way that we simply haven't seen humans capable of---at least, outside of the construction of the Wall. But we don't know their exact capabilities or the way, logistically, they go about their magic, so speculation is difficult there.

We've never seen the Children practice ice-based magic or fire-based magic---their power seems rooted in the earth, with hints that it stretches to the water as well (the Hammer of the Waters). We've never, to my knowledge, seen Essosi practice earth-based magic; Essosi magic seems, in many ways, like a poor and pale imitation of the Westerosi magic (the Faceless Men and the Undying, for example), in every area except fire.

We've never seen anyone outside of Westeros capable of warging, and we've never seen a nonhuman practice ice-based magic. My theory is that the delineation comes about via species: you need the blood of the Children of the Forest to be a skinchanger or greenseer (which is why they're only found among the descendants of the First Men, who interbred with the Children), and you need the blood of the Others to practice ice-based magic (there's been a lot of speculation that the Starks descend in some way from the Others---if that's true, that might be how Brandon the Builder built the Wall). I was wondering what nonhuman species could grant power over fire . . . but then it occurred to me: humans themselves. We've never seen the Children (or the Others) capable of practicing fire-based magic. For all we know, they physically can't. That would be an interesting development, if in fact the practioners of fire-based magic, who consider themselves to have superhuman capabiltiies, are in fact demonstrating their pure vanilla human-ness by practicing this very human type of magic.

Edited by tze, 08 July 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[butterbumps!]

Thank you for that link.   I'd wondered what the material of the Other's blades were; I'd erroneously thought it might be a form of crystal, specifically something like a diamond given the hardness, sharpness and clarity.  That's fascinating- so there really is a form of "ice magic" going on here.

tze, on 08 July 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

We've never seen the Children practice ice-based magic or fire-based magic---their power seems rooted in the earth, with hints that it stretches to the water as well (the Hammer of the Waters). We've never, to my knowledge, seen Essosi practice earth-based magic; Essosi magic seems, in many ways, like a poor and pale imitation of the Westerosi magic (the Faceless Men and the Undying, for example), in every area except fire.

This is more or less what I'd thought as well.  I've seen warging and greenseeing referred to as "ice magic" on the boards, but that categorization never seemed right to me.   I do think that these things, as well as "hammers of water" and breaking the footbridge to Essos are more likely CotF/ earth magics.   Something stands out to me though- the tale of Garin, who unleashed a similar hammer of water to drown the Valyrians (well before the Doom, as I understand it).  Is it in any way possible that CotF's magics might be present in Essos, or might this be another case of a mistranslated tale originating in Westeros (for example, perhaps a bastardization of the Moat Cailin Hammer or the Stepstones forming)?

Quote

We've never seen anyone outside of Westeros capable of warging, and we've never seen a nonhuman practice ice-based magic. My theory is that the delineation comes about via species: you need the blood of the Children of the Forest to be a skinchanger or greenseer (which is why they're only found among the descendants of the First Men, who interbred with the Children), and you need the blood of the Others to practice ice-based magic (there's been a lot of speculation that the Starks descend in some way from the Others---if that's true, that might be how Brandon the Builder built the Wall). I was wondering what nonhuman species could grant power over fire . . . but then it occurred to me: humans themselves. We've never seen the Children (or the Others) capable of practicing fire-based magic. For all we know, they physically can't. That would be an interesting development, if in fact the practioners of fire-based magic, who consider themselves to have superhuman capabiltiies, are in fact demonstrating their pure vanilla human-ness by practicing this very human type of magic.

This part is fascinating.  It would give credence to the theories of the importance of blood.  I think that the CotF have been frequently lumped into purveyors of ice magic because of their alleged assistance in building the Wall, Bloodraven's interactions with them (as many speculate he's behind the Others), and perhaps the theory that the Others are a fighting force for the CotF.   I hate that theory, as it sets up the duality that fire is the force behind human magics, and ice could be the extreme weapon of the CotF-- it would automatically push fire into the "good" camp (by virtue of the fact that fire is representative of the human side), and I just don't believe that to be true.  

I actually wonder if there is a person or people behind the "ice magic," perhaps there is a human with some of the CotF's powers who abuse these talents to engineer a similarly destructive weapon.   I like the idea that there is a human derivation for both "ice" and "fire" magic, as it would put the source and solutions both in human control.  I'm intrigued by your notion of Other's blood though.  I saw a fantastic crackpot once that suggested the Boltons might have Other blood in them (something about how Roose leeches the angry blood), and it just so happens that a Bolton is the first candidate mentioned for the Nights King.  I know Martin said the Others are somewhat analogous to the Sidhe; is it possible that they are an independent race acting purely on their own agenda?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

butterbumps!, on 08 July 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Is it in any way possible that CotF's magics might be present in Essos, or might this be another case of a mistranslated tale originating in Westeros (for example, perhaps a bastardization of the Moat Cailin Hammer or the Stepstones forming)?

I believe that all magic used in the series is blood(fire?) magic, aside for the Others. I always felt the CotF used blood magic similar to the magic used by Melisandre, but the manifestation of the magic varies depending on the intent of the user. So it makes sense to me that their magic could have originated in Essos.

Quote

I actually wonder if there is a person or people behind the "ice magic," perhaps there is a human with some of the CotF's powers who abuse these talents to engineer a similarly destructive weapon.   I like the idea that there is a human derivation for both "ice" and "fire" magic, as it would put the source and solutions both in human control.  I'm intrigued by your notion of Other's blood though.  I saw a fantastic crackpot once that suggested the Boltons might have Other blood in them (something about how Roose leeches the angry blood), and it just so happens that a Bolton is the first candidate mentioned for the Nights King.  I know Martin said the Others are somewhat analogous to the Sidhe; is it possible that they are an independent race acting purely on their own agenda?

I believe the Others could be acting on their own agenda, but what could their agenda be?

[Winter's Knight]

Lady Tippy Wolfsbane, on 10 July 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

I believe the Others could be acting on their own agenda, but what could their agenda be?

World domination of course.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Winter, on 11 July 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

World domination of course.

Of course!

[Winter's Knight]

I just started another reread and noticed that GoT mentions that direwolves had not been sighted south of the wall for two hundred years.
Dragons died out a hundred and fifty years ago.

Perhaps the reason nether Ned nor his father and grandfather were wargs was simply because of a block or blip in magic. Once t resumed, direwolves start reappearing, wargs start showing up and dragons are born.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Winter, on 12 July 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

I just started another reread and noticed that GoT mentions that direwolves had not been sighted south of the wall for two hundred years.
Dragons died out a hundred and fifty years ago.

Perhaps the reason nether Ned nor his father and grandfather were wargs was simply because of a block or blip in magic. Once t resumed, direwolves start reappearing, wargs start showing up and dragons are born.

I have always felt this way as well. I believe the direwolves sitting next to the former lords and kings of Winterfelll in the crypts were originally more than just a symbol of their house. There were definitely Stark wargs before the current Stark children.