Gender in Genre IV

[Mr. E]

Masculine in the classic way, perhaps. Masculine strength being classically "external" -- i.e., agressiveness. Feminine strength being classically more internal.

[Datepalm]

Do y'all know of any sort of spoiler-warning-list-of-books-with-rapes?

We should start one on Goodreads!

...I have like one answer to everything lately.

[Lyanna Stark]

What I found creepy was how much the asker of that question seemed to be looking forward to it. Dude. Just write your extra-private fanfic and have done. And DON'T SHOW IT TO THE AUTHOR. *shudder*

Totally.

Plus is it just me, or has rape become some sort of symbol for "oh now it's proper gritty" or that the author is somehow serious about adding "suffering", or some such? Or maybe I am just projecting, but it feels like rape often gets to be some sort of plot shortcut for "and bad things happened which I can't be bothered to really expand upon". That's also why I guess I am seeing explanations of "well that can't be rape because rape is worse than murder" when people are reading about sexual abuse/rape described in detail.

[Sci-2]

That's also why I guess I am seeing explanations of "well that can't be rape because rape is worse than murder" when people are reading about sexual abuse/rape described in detail.

Can you elaborate on this? Are people saying graphic descriptions of rape should instead be more titillating?

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I think the thing that bothers me is that in some way it devalues the experience of people of have actually gone through such an experience. It has become in its own way such a trope that it's expected (and so less powerful). It also bothers me that a lot of the "rapes" that one sees in genre fiction tend to come in the violent/sadistic (Todd Akin-style) flavor. If you want to go down the sexual coercion line, there are more thoughtful ways to go about it that are, in some sense (and to my thinking) more "realistic." Mad Men jumps to mind, though I know it's not literature.

And Lyanna, further to your point, if you want to be gritty, there are a lot of other ways you can go about it and examine the human condition.

[dietl]

"That's also why I guess I am seeing explanations of "well that can't be rape because rape is worse than murder" when people are reading about sexual abuse/rape described in detail."

Who says that?

[sologdin]

Well, the words "masculine notion" seem to indicate that these notions of power and strength are false cultural artifacts?

right. i took the notion of strength to involve ass-kicking and superhero crap. of course the latter is false. regular old ass-beating, though, doesn't strike me as particularly related to biological sex, even if it has been historically gendered, i.e., is a false cultural artifact. not sure why it is somehow objectionable that women adopt ass-kickery as a skill, though--as noted, the article is correct that women adopting ass-kickery is the only way to be included. 'course, in poorly written stories, which feature only and always asskickery, i can't imagine how the objection is salient. the proper objection is that the story sucks.

[Chaldanya]

Totally.

Plus is it just me, or has rape become some sort of symbol for "oh now it's proper gritty" or that the author is somehow serious about adding "suffering", or some such? Or maybe I am just projecting, but it feels like rape often gets to be some sort of plot shortcut for "and bad things happened which I can't be bothered to really expand upon". That's also why I guess I am seeing explanations of "well that can't be rape because rape is worse than murder" when people are reading about sexual abuse/rape described in detail.

I don't think it's just you. I think it's almost become expected as character development for a woman (she's been raped) or a man (his mother/sister/wife/daughter was raped). It's a cipher and most authors don't actually take the time to write the survival realistically. In the fictional world the rape turns the protagonist into some arse-kicking badass; in real life the majority find some way to just get the fuck on with it.

I guess that's my way of saying that it is lazy writing.

N

[Sci-2]

A strong female character.

I am a strong female character.

I am a role model.

I am attractive.

...but not too attractive.

I am mature.

...but not too old.

I am independent.

...but just vulnerable enough so my core demographic continues to engage with my character.

My garments cover an agreed portion of my body.

...one which has been determined by focus groups and polls to be inoffensive to those who find my body offensive.

My breasts are visible but not evident.

...it was decided that I needed something to make me stand out. I suggested a handlebar moustache but that was vetoed.

I have fun and adventure!

...whilst still being very responsible.

I run my own successful business!

...all by myself.

I am brainy and a nerd! I love reading books!

...and yet I have plenty of time to play with the boys.

Because I am a strong female character.

Indeed sometimes I even wear glasses. To show how clever I am. Just sometimes.

I am skilled in the use of all weapons, real and fictional.

...but I'm also gentle and love animals.

I'm bisexual! I'm mixed race!

...but don't worry, I'm a sort of safe mocha latte.

I have a cool disability.

...though you'll never see me struggle to get on a bus or in and out of public lavatories.

My designers have a lot of boxes to tick, you see.

They needed a strong female character.

So they made me.

I am all things to all people.

Because there's only one of me.

I suggested getting a couple more

...but the designers said the game/film/TV show wouldn't be marketable to boys if they did that.

So there I am.

A strong female character.

Just the one.

It's quite tiring really.

[Datepalm]

We're down to poetry? Shoot me now.

[Sci-2]

We're down to poetry? Shoot me now.

Oh, I'll have better links soon but I figured the poem would be enough to foster some discussion.

[Datepalm]

Yes, about how low we have fallen. I call myself a feminist, you know? I sometimes complain about representation. And what am I associated with, for my efforts? This. Twatty poetry. That thinks it's insightful and isn't. That thinks it's funny and isn't. That thinks it's making a point but doesn't. That cherry nitpicks at a problem so first world people in Liechtenstein are feeling like their narrative of oppression isn't getting represented fully here. And have I mentioned that it's poetry? Insult to injury.

Now, I respect anybody's right to write whatever they want, in their space. I suppose, therefore, what i'm really asking is why you, Sciborg2, felt a need to fucking share this with all of us. At least add some commentary. (btw, lengthy quotes from other sites, and especially "just putting this up here" is two counts of bad forum form.)

[Sci-2]

(btw, lengthy quotes from other sites, and especially "just putting this up here" is two counts of bad forum form.)

At this point it should be obvious that if it doesn't count toward my being banned I don't care about bad forum form.

Is it good poetry? No. It does relate to gender in genre and presents an interesting list of check boxes for the acceptable SFCharacter.

Really, I think the complaint that it is a first world problem is silly - it's a gender in genre thread. SFF covers are a first world problem, Bakker's blatherings are first world problems.

If I'd posted in a thread dealing with equal pay or rape culture, yeah it's a distraction. Seems fully at home here.

[Mr. E]

Oh, God, that phrase...

[Sci-2]

Oh, God, that phrase...

What phrase?

[Darth Richard]

Gender issues are a first world problem? Uh. Um. Uh. No.

[Darth Richard]

Ahem. I should clarify. I meant they are not ONLY a first world problem.They're a problem. In general.

Edit: That poem is terrible.

[Sci-2]

I think [it's just] the depictions of characters in SFF novels is [that are] under review as potentially being classified as a "first world problem".

[Darth Richard]

How DARE you post about a first world problem on a site based around some fantasy books. HOW DARE YOU SIR. YOU ShOULD BE OUT HELPING THE POOR CHILDREN OF WHATTHEFUCKEVERISTAN.

[TrackerNeil]

Totally.

Plus is it just me, or has rape become some sort of symbol for "oh now it's proper gritty" or that the author is somehow serious about adding "suffering", or some such? Or maybe I am just projecting, but it feels like rape often gets to be some sort of plot shortcut for "and bad things happened which I can't be bothered to really expand upon". That's also why I guess I am seeing explanations of "well that can't be rape because rape is worse than murder" when people are reading about sexual abuse/rape described in detail.

Yep. Rape is one of the laziest difficulties an author can place before a protagonist, and it reflects that author's insistence upon seeing a woman primary in sexual terms. It's lazy and unimaginative, and a writer should be able to do better.