482 replies to this topic

[y ddraig]

Damn you, wiki. That explains my 'this is brand-new information! Why did I never see this before??' reaction. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Eira Seren]

Dragonfish, on 20 July 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

@y ddraig--

It's important to note that the portion of the wiki you're referring to omits a small but crucial portion of the SSM on which it is based. Here is the original quote:

"After the birth of her son, she begged Aegon to have the Faith release her from her marriage vows so she could become a septa, but he refused."


Note the bold portion. She asked Aegon to get the Faith to release her from her vows. So divorce is not something that a king or crown prince may unilaterally obtain. They have to get the consent of the Faith. Now, it's entirely possible, even likely, that when it comes to kings the Faith is nothing but a rubber stamp on these matters. Still, at the very least the Faith would have to be involved in the decision, which would make it very likely that news of the event would pass on to others. Given these facts, it's unlikely that Rhaegar did get a divorce, because we really ought to have heard of it by now. And this isn't even taking into consideration that very likely possibility that Aerys would have had to consent to the divorce, which I don't think he would've done.

would he have had to have the permission of the Faith and/or Aerys to marry again?  (elopement excluded, of course)

[Sapphire]

Eira Seren, on 21 July 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

would he have had to have the permission of the Faith and/or Aerys to marry again?  (elopement excluded, of course)

Yes, as head of the family he'd need the king's approval. Maybe Rhaegar thought it was one of those situations where it's "easier to ask for forgiveness than permission". If he went to Aerys for help in annulling Lyanna's betrothal to Robert and persuading the Faith in allowing polygamy, there's a strong chance his father would deny him. Their relationship was strained and Aerys paranoid of Rhaegar. Making plans on his own and bringing the Starks into the family would have set Aerys off even more.

But if Rhaegar marries Lyanna and gets a child on her, Aerys would be forced to recognize the marriage. In most real life cases when a girl eloped with a man, her betrothed relinquishes rights to her for shame of taking "second hand goods" (eww) and the girl's family pressure the man to righting the affront to their house. I think this is what R+L expected to happen.

[Dragonfish]

Eira Seren, on 21 July 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

would he have had to have the permission of the Faith and/or Aerys to marry again?  (elopement excluded, of course)

I don't think he would need Aerys' permission in order for a marriage to be valid, if that's what you mean. Tyrion managed to marry without his father's permission, for instance. All it seems to require is a septon, or for the old gods, a heart tree, and perhaps a witness or two as well, though I'm not sure if that's required. That said, it's entirely possible that Aerys could've strongarmed the Faith to have Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna set aside, as Tywin most likely did with Tyrion's marriage. That's why I think Rhaegar and Lyanna went into hiding, with the intention of coming back with a child: it would've been difficult for Aerys to have the marriage set aside without either one of them present, and it would've been even more difficult once the marriage had already produced a child.

[kg1982]

Plus, Rhaegar was plotting to overthrown his father.  He likely planned to call a Council once he returned with Lyanna.

[valyrian_steel]

While it's hard to give to much credence to the actions of a crazy man, I have to wonder if Aerys II would have been a little more forgiving of Brandon Stark's behavior if he was outraged at what Rhaegar had done.  Seems to me his full support of Rhaegar indicates he wouldnt have been opposed to his doing whatever he wanted with Lyanna Stark.

[Braavosi Sealady]

Even with Aerys problems with Rhaegar, Brandon arrived at KL threatening the life of a Targ/the Crown Prince. That and the fact that Aerys was batshit crazy lead to the tragic death of the Starks. Frankly, I think Aerys couldn't care less about the Lyanna story at the time. In his madness he just saw a nice opportunity to flame someone...

[Valyarian rose]

Dragonfish, on 20 July 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

@y ddraig--

It's important to note that the portion of the wiki you're referring to omits a small but crucial portion of the SSM on which it is based. Here is the original quote:

"After the birth of her son, she begged Aegon to have the Faith release her from her marriage vows so she could become a septa, but he refused."


Note the bold portion. She asked Aegon to get the Faith to release her from her vows. So divorce is not something that a king or crown prince may unilaterally obtain. They have to get the consent of the Faith. Now, it's entirely possible, even likely, that when it comes to kings the Faith is nothing but a rubber stamp on these matters. Still, at the very least the Faith would have to be involved in the decision, which would make it very likely that news of the event would pass on to others. Given these facts, it's unlikely that Rhaegar did get a divorce, because we really ought to have heard of it by now. And this isn't even taking into consideration that very likely possibility that Aerys would have had to consent to the divorce, which I don't think he would've done.

^^^ That bit about Aerys, I was just about to point that out! Even if Rhaegar wanted a divorce (which I think he did since Elia couldn't give him any more children, and it's my opinion that he was very infatuated with Lyanna and wanted to be with her), I believe Aerys would have to agree to the decision before it could happen.

[FrozenFire3]

Sapphire, on 21 July 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Yes, as head of the family he'd need the king's approval. Maybe Rhaegar thought it was one of those situations where it's "easier to ask for forgiveness than permission". If he went to Aerys for help in annulling Lyanna's betrothal to Robert and persuading the Faith in allowing polygamy, there's a strong chance his father would deny him. Their relationship was strained and Aerys paranoid of Rhaegar. Making plans on his own and bringing the Starks into the family would have set Aerys off even more.

But if Rhaegar marries Lyanna and gets a child on her, Aerys would be forced to recognize the marriage. In most real life cases when a girl eloped with a man, her betrothed relinquishes rights to her for shame of taking "second hand goods" (eww) and the girl's family pressure the man to righting the affront to their house. I think this is what R+L expected to happen.

y ddraig, on 20 July 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

I went to brush up on my Targaryen history, thanks to this thread, and saw something. Unrelated to the topic of true dragons, sorry, but it's something I found interesting. About Aegon the Unworthy and his sister-wife Naerys:

Their marriage was an unhappy one, and once his son Daeron was born, she asked Aegon to release her from her vows so she could join the Faith, but he refused her.

Aegon was crown prince at the time, as was Rhaegar when he died. So, if Rhaegar had wanted to divorce Elia, it seems it would have been well within his powers to do so, regardless of whether or not the Faith agreed. Catelyn, too, once remarks that the Targaryen answered to no one but themselves, not even gods. So, I'm wondering if maybe there's a simple solution to the whole Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna polygamy problem: Elia, maybe due to her delicate health, asked Rhaegar to be released from her vows, Rhaegar agreed and married Lyanna. At the very least, it makes divorce look like a very distinct possibility when Targaryens are involved. I know many people find it hard to imagine Lyanna would have accepted being a second wife, even nominally.

I'm not sure whether Rhaegar wanted a divorce from Elia, or merely the third head of the dragon. If he obtained a divorce from his wife, that would have been a kind of, say, Henry VIII situation with Catherine of Aragon when he married Anne Boleyn. Mary, his first daughter, was declared an illegitimate child after the divorce and this happened with Elizabeth when Anne was executed too. It was a dishonourable thing to do. And I'm not sure if Rhaegar wanted to dishonour Elia. Unless, of course, Elia herself asked so, as you said y ddraig. It might have happened. She knew how strong his will and desire was to have the third head and simply let him go. But right then, I think there simply was a poligamy going on. When Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away together, it was something that happened quickly, none of the two were actually thinking and infact all this lead to a war. Lyanna was gone about one year and Jon was already born at ToJ, meaning she was very soon with child and if they ever married it was "right away". In the case of Rhaegar being crown prince, he would have probably needed his father's consent (at least officially) but I think he knew Aerys would have never accepted a divorce or a second marriage. And so he decided for himself. That's why I'm so strongly convinced he and Lyanna were married before the old gods. The faith would have had to declare his marriage with Elia null and void, before he could ever marry Lyanna. Instead if the old gods bore witness, matters would have been different. A true marriage.

[Gloer]

I wonder if Jon Snow is secretly  dying his hair black just to fit in with Starks...

[Sapphire]

Starks have brown hair. Ned must have sent Jon to the Wall with a lifetime supply of hair dye.

FrozenFire3, on 22 July 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

I'm not sure whether Rhaegar wanted a divorce from Elia, or merely the third head of the dragon.

Can't know for sure until the last two books see the light of day, but I don't think Rhaegar planned to divorce Elia. That would incite Dorne's ire and I think the situation would be resolved with "she can't have any more kids and I don't love her. Yours is the only bed I'll seek Lyanna". Besides, Rhaegar thought Aegon and Rhaenys had a part to play in the prophecy. Don't think he'd deny them their birthright just cause he didn't love their mother.

[Lady Octarina]

Sapphire, on 22 July 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Can't know for sure until the last two books see the light of day, but I don't think Rhaegar planned to divorce Elia. That would incite Dorne's ire and I think the situation would be resolved with "she can't have any more kids and I don't love her. Yours is the only bed I'll seek Lyanna". Besides, Rhaegar thought Aegon and Rhaenys had a part to play in the prophecy. Don't think he'd deny them their birthright just cause he didn't love their mother.

Exactly! Which is why I believe, whatever his reason was, he came to an agreement with Elia before running away with Lyanna, and Elia's brothers were aware of it. We're talking politics here; even if Elia had to share the position of queen with someone else there were still many potential advantages to make it worth the trouble.

[Arionis]

Lady Octarina, on 22 July 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Exactly! Which is why I believe, whatever his reason was, he came to an agreement with Elia before running away with Lyanna, and Elia's brothers were aware of it. We're talking politics here; even if Elia had to share the position of queen with someone else there were still many potential advantages to make it worth the trouble.

Like the sister-wife situation among Mormons? Elia being the first and more powerful wife and Lyanna the second one, both marriages being legal in Rhaegar eyes?
I can see that.

[Lady Aislinn]

I have a question though. Knowing what we know about Lynaa -- her beauty, her willfulness and her cynicism about love, would she really consent to being just the second wife, taken only just so some prophecy could be fulfilled?

[Ygrain]

Lady Aislinn, on 22 July 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

I have a question though. Knowing what we know about Lynaa -- her beauty, her willfulness and her cynicism about love, would she really consent to being just the second wife, taken only just so some prophecy could be fulfilled?

?Cynicism? Are you referring to her "love is sweet but cannot change the human nature"? That is definitely not cynicism, simply a look without rose-tinted glasses. Also, I highly doubt Rhaegar wanted her just because of the prophecy, given that we have two separate PoVs referring to Rhaegar being in love with her, and possible hints of her reciprocating the feeling by getting emotional over Rhaegar's song and clutching blue roses on her deathbed, which may have been the crown he gave her at Harrenhall.

[Lady Aislinn]

Ygrain, on 22 July 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

?Cynicism? Are you referring to her "love is sweet but cannot change the human nature"? That is definitely not cynicism, simply a look without rose-tinted glasses. Also, I highly doubt Rhaegar wanted her just because of the prophecy, given that we have two separate PoVs referring to Rhaegar being in love with her, and possible hints of her reciprocating the feeling by getting emotional over Rhaegar's song and clutching blue roses on her deathbed, which may have been the crown he gave her at Harrenhall.

For lack of a better word, yes. She doesn't strike me as someone who play second fiddle to the first wife. I'm pretty sure she's infatuated with him but to "dishonor" her family? She is a Stark after all. But then again, crazier things have been done for love. It's just a question though.

Edited by Lady Aislinn, 22 July 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[Alia of the knife]

Sapphire, on 21 July 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Yes, as head of the family he'd need the king's approval. Maybe Rhaegar thought it was one of those situations where it's "easier to ask for forgiveness than permission". If he went to Aerys for help in annulling Lyanna's betrothal to Robert and persuading the Faith in allowing polygamy, there's a strong chance his father would deny him. Their relationship was strained and Aerys paranoid of Rhaegar. Making plans on his own and bringing the Starks into the family would have set Aerys off even more.

But if Rhaegar marries Lyanna and gets a child on her, Aerys would be forced to recognize the marriage. In most real life cases when a girl eloped with a man, her betrothed relinquishes rights to her for shame of taking "second hand goods" (eww) and the girl's family pressure the man to righting the affront to their house. I think this is what R+L expected to happen.

Lady Aislinn, on 22 July 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

For lack of a better word, yes. She doesn't strike me as someone who play second fiddle to the first wife. I'm pretty sure she's infatuated with him but to "dishonor" her family? She is a Stark after all. But then again, crazier things have done for love. It's just a question though.

I have often thought the same thing.


And not only is Aerys paranoid about Rhaegar, he's paranoid about the Starks in paricular.
If he found out that Rhaegar was interested in her, he most likely would have to be peeled from the ceiling, so I don't think asking permission was even an opition.
It also put a bullseye on Lyanna that she wast trouble for his son, (which is why I'm skeptical about Rhaegar crowning her to "share the victory" theory).
It would certainly add a little nuance to his character to find that he could be a little on the willful side as well

[FrozenFire3]

Sapphire, on 22 July 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Can't know for sure until the last two books see the light of day, but I don't think Rhaegar planned to divorce Elia. That would incite Dorne's ire and I think the situation would be resolved with "she can't have any more kids and I don't love her. Yours is the only bed I'll seek Lyanna". Besides, Rhaegar thought Aegon and Rhaenys had a part to play in the prophecy. Don't think he'd deny them their birthright just cause he didn't love their mother.

Exactly!

[Budj]

I don't see why Elia would care that much considering their marriage was political...as long as her off-spring were not pushed aside for the crown then I think Rhaegar probably could have done what he wanted in this situation.

[BronnJonBronson]

Ygrain, on 11 July 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

As Lady Octarina says - people are fully capable to grasp it by themselves, which, IMHO, gives the theory a credit. I put it together on my own, as well. All it took was one thorough reading of Ned's PoVs and combing for hints and details.

When i read agot the first time i never bought that ned fathered a bastard,with all his honor and honesty it never made sense that he would get married; then go bang either wylla or ashara first thing like some kind of horny wolf, then go fight the war, then when the war's over go back and collect the bastard child and bring him to winterfell instead of leaving him with his mother. r+l=j just makes so much more sense than ned running around like the quiet horny wolf, banging broads and collecting bastards.