350 replies to this topic

[RedBean]

I think the main reason for Sansa's reluctance is that he's a Lannister, not just that he's a dwarf. Tywin's plan was for Tyrion to have Winterfell (because he wouldn't have Casterly Rock), so Tyrion married her with the expectation that Robb would die and then he'll have WF and Sansa all to himself. Does anyone expect her to be happy with that? Even Tyrion can't just expect her to instantly fall in love with him over that.

And Garlan was just plain silly to say that Tyrion would make a better husband than Loras. Well, duh! Loras is gay, and is not even remotely intersted in Sansa. I think he was just being nice, but honestly, it's not like his comment is some testament that Tyrion would make an amazing husband. Only that he'd be better than a gay man.

[Garlan Marius]

Aleenys, on 11 July 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

It IS wrong. What kind of seriously mentally fucked up person would expect a frightened 12 year old girl who's forced into marriage to love him, bed him and accept him as a husband? If he had any sense he would have seen how much suffering he was causing her. Seriously, every time he pondered about wanting to run away with her, kiss her or bed her I was repulsed. I understand his need to be loved, but seriously? Expecting that from someone like Sansa? No.

Again, I never said he should actually expect it.  And Tyrion is "seriously mentally fucked up."  Thank Tywin's sexual and emotional abuse for that one.

[Ser_Patreck]

Winter, on 11 July 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

You'll note that Tyrion can walk away at any time he wants? He can return to Casterly Rock or go out East or join the Watch, the Citadel or the Faith, stay with lesser cousins, his uncle Kevan, his aunt Genma, go into trade-there are numerous other options for him apart from his father's money.

Casterly Rock is his father's. Kevan and Genna are also his father's. How will he go East without his father's money? How would he start a trade without his father's money? There remains the Faith, the Wall and the Citadel. That is, if the Faith or the Citadel would ever accept someone like him. The Wall remains, and I can't fault him for not choosing a life of hardness and privations.

Lyanna Stark, on 11 July 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

An assassination attempt that he thinks was due to Cersei, but wasn't.

How is he "repeatedly humiliated and threatened by Joffrey and his dog"? In ACOK Tyrion is Hand, he is the one to threaten Joffrey. In ASOS the Hound is gone from Kings Landing, so he can't to anything. Joffrey is also still a minor so cannot have him beheaded. Cersei will clearly not.

As for the "emotional abuse" does that make it right to marry Sansa? How does that "correct" the emotional abuse Tyrion has been the victim of? How does it justify him agreeing to a forced marriage to a 13 year old hostage who doesn't want him?

It wasn't? How do we know? Regardless, Tyrion had all the reasons in the world to believe it was Cersei.

Joffrey did behead Ned Stark, even as a minor. Joffrey wouldn't be a minor forever. Joffrey liked to humiliate his dwarf uncle in front of others - Did you forget the scenes he made at both marriages, Tyrion's and his own? Did you also forget the Hound's ominous warning about "the Prince will remeber that" after Tyrion slaps him in Winterfell?

Emotional blackmail and abuse doesn't make it right to marry Sansa. I didn't say that. Stop building strawmen. Emotional blackmail and abuse does make you vulnerable. I don't know if you're aware, but some abuse victims find it hard to go against their their abusers (Case is point: TYWIN). It doesn't justifies his choice. It explains it in terms other than "Tyrion is a bastard and wanted to fuck the pretty girl".

David Selig, on 11 July 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Here we go again...

Can we get back on topic, please? The reasons why Tyrion married Sansa and how much choice he had is such a beaten to death discussion...

GIven that the topic is "No woman in her right mind would be attracted to a dwarf because they have bad genes and are useless", no, I don't want to get back to the topic. Given also that no matter how many arguments are made, Tyrion has already been condemned to eternal heel by some posters, I'll be just moving out of this unproductive discussion.

Best regards to all of you.

[Mulled Wino]

David Selig, on 11 July 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

http://asoiaf.wester...ansa lannister"

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, Tyrion's looks are a minor reason why he'd make a terrible husband/boyfriend. The main one is that he's a big time jerk who's ruthless and cruel and treats women like objects. Even if he looked like young Brad Pitt, he'd still make a bad husband as far as I am concerned.

Wow...............

[danm_999]

Aleenys, on 11 July 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

It IS wrong. What kind of seriously mentally fucked up person would expect a frightened 12 year old girl who's forced into marriage to love him, bed him and accept him as a husband? If he had any sense he would have seen how much suffering he was causing her. Seriously, every time he pondered about wanting to run away with her, kiss her or bed her I was repulsed. I understand his need to be loved, but seriously? Expecting that from someone like Sansa? No.

He doesn't expect those things, he hopes that they'll come true.

Tyrion's not at all delusional about how Sansa feels about him, just delusional in his hopes.

[finishingmove]

This is common sense, did it really need a thread?

Yes, it's smarter not to go for Tyrion.

But it's also possible that a woman will fall in love with him one day.

[Mulled Wino]

If i mistook your post, i apologize.  It sure seemed like the argument was "tyrion's had it bad too, so they should just get together".  But since it has been clarified, i apologize.

[Garlan Marius]

Ser_Patreck, on 11 July 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

GIven that the topic is "No woman in her right mind would be attracted to a dwarf because they have bad genes and are useless", no, I don't want to get back to the topic. Given also that no matter how many arguments are made, Tyrion has already been condemned to eternal heel by some posters, I'll be just moving out of this unproductive discussion.

This is probably the best choice, I shall follow you through the door.

[Winter's Knight]

Ser_Patreck, on 11 July 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Casterly Rock is his father's. Kevan and Genna are also his father's. How will he go East without his father's money? How would he start a trade without his father's money? There remains the Faith, the Wall and the Citadel. That is, if the Faith or the Citadel would ever accept someone like him. The Wall remains, and I can't fault him for not choosing a life of hardness and privations.

Genna is a married woman and independent of his father. His father gives him an allowance-how do you think he pays for Bronn, Shae's house, his other prostitutes, jewels. gowns et al? What's there to keep him from saving some of said allowance and breaking free?

The Citadel and the Sept accept anyone-we already know one dwarf septon.

[Dr. Pepper]

Ser_Patreck, on 11 July 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Casterly Rock is his father's. Kevan and Genna are also his father's. How will he go East without his father's money? How would he start a trade without his father's money? There remains the Faith, the Wall and the Citadel. That is, if the Faith or the Citadel would ever accept someone like him. The Wall remains, and I can't fault him for not choosing a life of hardness and privations.

Well, considering he went east without his father's money, it's obviously possible.  He even took on a new name and identity which means he obviously realizes this as an option.  Penny had a trade before her brother was killed and before she was sold into slavery.  There are also all of those people in Westeros who have trades without their father's gold.  Tyrion could have started from scratch just like 95% of the population.  The Faith doesn't seem to have a problem with dwarves.  Brienne met a traveling dwarf sparrow.

[Natalie_S]

Sailing the sunset sea, on 11 July 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

It is not the best kept secret in Westeros that Tyrions rejects plain girls. He is disgusted by Penny's feelings and can't imagine ever sleeping with her. Does this make him a bad guy? No, it doesn't. He is kind to her and tries to let her down easy.

Except he's not.
He just doesn't desire her.
Aparte from that he often touches her, hugs her, hold hands, feels her brow when he thinks she might be sick, pinches her nose... there's never, ever disgust from him. He behaves like a friend or a big brother.


Besides, I still don't agree with whomever says that Tyrion had nothing to fear from his family.
He experienced at 13 years old what happens when he does something that Tywin doesn't approve of (see Tysha's gruesome abuse) and he has just risked to be killed by a man at her sister's orders (there seems to be a doubt in the debate about who actually sent him, but from Tyrion's point of view it's a fact that Cersei sent him). He has all reasons in the world to be afraid of the consequences of his actions.

Apart from that, I agree with Ser_Patrek about pretty much everything.

[mormont]

Scipio Arryn, on 11 July 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

Sansa being under the age of majority is irrelevant in regards to the marriage between her and Tyrion.  

I'd say it's extremely relevant. Sansa being under the age of majority means that she is legally a ward of the Crown (so far as the Lannisters are concerned) and that her consent to the marriage is not actually required. It means she can literally be forced into the marriage, and it will still be legal.

[Kittykatknits]

Mulled Wino, on 11 July 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Wait a second, people are giving Sansa a hard time for not emotionally investing and acting like a wife with Tyrion?

No fucking way.   If anyone has a link, I'd be very curious to see that dialogue on that.

Mulled Wino, on 11 July 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Got a link?

I got several.
http://asoiaf.wester...nsa-and-tyrion/
http://asoiaf.wester...ansa-lannister/
http://asoiaf.wester...lannisteragain/
http://asoiaf.wester...a-lannister-v2/

There you go, read and enjoy. I'm pretty sure the first thread is the one that has someone saying that they would love it if Sansa and Tyrion stay together so that he can realize that he is worthy of love. For the record, there are lots more threads out there, I just linked to the first few.

Most arguments for them to stay together come down to two basic arguments:
1. Their marriage is for the good of the realm and will somehow bring peace to Westeros
2. When Sansa is older, she will be mature and better able to love Tyrion for his "good points"

[Aleenys]

danm_999, on 11 July 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

He doesn't expect those things, he hopes that they'll come true.

Tyrion's not at all delusional about how Sansa feels about him, just delusional in his hopes.

He's actively trying to win her heart by suggesting they run away to CR even after she told him clearly she would never want him. Hope or expectancy, doesn't make any difference.

I'm just not going to excuse that by saying "Oh, he just wants to be loved." That's far past that point for me. And in his thoughts its almost always about his appearance, he should give her more credit for acting that way, but most of the time he's resentful that she won't open up to him.

Well, I do think its good that he at least tried to be nice to her and refused (or at least delayed) bedding her (there are not many men who would have done the same thing in his shoes in Westeros I fear). I just find his constant 'husbandly' thoughts and actions towards her inexcusable. He should have had better sense than that. Again, she made it clear by words and actions that she would never want him.

[Sailing the sunset sea]

Natalie_S, on 11 July 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Except he's not.
He just doesn't desire her.
Aparte from that he often touches her, hugs her, hold hands, feels her brow when he thinks she might be sick, pinches her nose... there's never, ever disgust from him. He behaves like a friend or a big brother.

Okay, I will reword that...her feelings make him uncomfortable and he is disgusted by the idea of sleeping with her.

[danm_999]

Aleenys, on 11 July 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

He's actively trying to win her heart by suggesting they run away to CR even after she told him clearly she would never want him. Hope or expectancy, doesn't make any difference.

Well, yes it does, because you're saying Tyrion is mentally disturbed and delusional for expecting something he never expected.

To hope for something is completely different than to expect it. The peasants hope for a never ending summer. They expect Winter.

[Aleenys]

danm_999, on 11 July 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Well, yes it does, because you're saying Tyrion is mentally disturbed and delusional for expecting something he never expected.

To hope for something is completely different than to expect it. The peasants hope for a never ending summer. They expect Winter.

Peasants can't stop the winter from coming. Tyrion could have stopped acting husbandly towards Sansa. He sees it makes her uncomfortable, what could someone want by offering to run away to someplace with his wife? He expects in the long term, by showing himself to be a good and worthy husband, for her to reciprocate and trust him. If he didn't think so he wouldn't have married her. Even he didn't think Sansa would be that cold and distant it seems.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Long, long ass post warning:

Ser_Patreck, on 11 July 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

GIven that the topic is "No woman in her right mind would be attracted to a dwarf because they have bad genes and are useless", no, I don't want to get back to the topic.

Well, if that's how my OP is interpreted, I sure laid an egg and I apologize for any offense I have given.  However the idea that Tyrion wasn't marriageable because he is a dwarf didn't start with me, it started with GRRM.  Read the scene where Tywin tells Tyrion he is to marry Sansa; Tywin also tells Tyrion of all the matches he tried to make for him, and how they were all refused.  In particular, Tywin tells of how he offered Tyrion as a match for Lysa after Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and how Hoster Tully rejected it, saying that he wanted a "whole man" for his daughter. It's safe to conclude that Tyrion was refused by all the houses because he is dwarf.  What other reason would there be to refuse a match with the heir apparent (at that time) to the immensely rich Casterly Rock and risk the ire of Tywin Lannister? In addition, when Catelyn heard about Sansa's marriage, she thought how her daughter would be forced to bear Tyrion's "vile children."  I inferred from this statement that she believed Tyrion's children would also be deformed, in addition to being Lannisters.  So it would seem that eugenics, if that's what you want to call it, is part of ASOIAF.  There would be no story if Tyrion was treated the same as the average lordling.

Sevumar, on 10 July 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Every person has a right to reject a prospective partner that he or she does not desire, but this is a relatively recent development in our society. For much of human history, both men and women were not free to choose their partners, although men often enjoyed a greater degree of sexual freedom than women.

That's true, and I bet those matchmakers were a lot fussier about "madness in the family," etc., than marriageable men and women were on their own, or so Victorian novels would lead me to believe.  Those matchmakers were not only bargaining for  spouses, they were bargaining for grandchildren to carry on the dynasty or become warrior lords or work the farm.  They would seek healthy, or apparently healthy spouses, unless the money was really damn good.  In Tyrion's case, Tywin's efforts to make a match for him were all unsuccessful in spite of the all that Lannister gold.  In Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, the bride was bringing the lands and title because Tywin had disinherited Tyrion.  So she got neither wealth nor health from the match, lucky girl.

Regarding eugenics:  I thought I made it clear in my original post that it would be a bad idea to marry a person with a genetic condition in a Medieval society where there is no medical care because the chance of the match producing an affected child that survived infancy or had something resembling a normal life was low to non-existent.  I do not think that making an effort to have the healthiest child possible at a time when unhealthy or differently-abled children were practically doomed from birth is practicing eugenics.

Spoiler

I will also note that even with modern medicine there are carriers of genetic conditions deciding whether to have children at all, and parents deciding whether to carry a particular pregnancy to term because of some genetic anomaly, every single day.  That's why there are genetic counselors at hospitals and tests such as sonograms and amniocentesis.  Are people who avail themselves of these tests and decide not to have a certain child or children practicing eugenics or are they being responsible by evaluating what's best for them and their children?  I chose not to have children because I decided that "three generations of crazy women are enough," to misquote Justice Holmes (who in fact wrote a legal decision based on eugenics).  I hated having a crazy mother, I don't like being crazy myself.  My condition is not a gift, nor does it make me special. I don't feel compelled to inflict myself on a child or make another crazy woman in the vague hope that she'll be special, or to prove I have the right to do so.  If you regard my decision as eugenics then you can just bite me.

My point is that in the previous thousands of years of human evolution before the development of genetic testing people could only determine whether a potential mate would father or bear healthy children was by that person's appearance, or so some scientists say.  Research indicates that certain characteristics are indicia of health and fertility, and that an attraction to these characteristics has become instinctive.  In this sense humans are no different than animals that choose a mate because he has the thickest, darkest, mane or the glossiest feathers or the ability to beat the crap out of his rivals.  The difference is that humans can factor in other criteria but sometimes those factors – even lots of money -- cannot compensate for lack of attraction.

So I maintain that a pretty young Westerosi woman will naturally be attracted a pretty young Westerosi man.  She will want Loras, the handsome knight, but she is not shallow for doing so; she's instinctively seeking the best father for her children by one of the few tools that she has.  The Westerosi men who reject unattractive women are doing the same thing yet they are not criticized in the books for doing so, and they feel no obligation to appreciate the other attributes of those women.

Ser_Patreck, on 11 July 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

No, we know what Tywin would have done: marry Sansa to Lancel - who wouldn't be as understanding of her unwillingness as Tyrion - and then codemn Tyrion to a bleak future of more rejection and no inheritance.

And yes, he continues to try to break through Sansa's armor. What was he supposed to do, sit on his hands forever, living besides an emotionally dead woman without trying to reach to her?

I think Lancel would have been more than understanding of her unwillingness – no one even knew whether he'd be able to consummate a marriage to Sansa when Tywin decided to marry her to a Lannister.  Later he chose not to consummate his marriage to Gatehouse Ami for religious reasons.  The pious Sansa and he would have gotten along fine, especially if he could take her away from King's Landing.

If Sansa is emotionally dead, who killed her?  Lannisters, that's who.  Tyrion Lannister, who did his best to help his family steal everything Sansa held dear – her family, her home, her freedom, her hopes and dreams for a good and loving marriage (her only ambition)  – then asks her, in the wedding night scene, to give him her love as well as her body.  Not a realistic expectation, hope, request, whatever, imo, especially when you consider that other Westerosi women, women who were bettered by their marriages, managed to hate their husbands for years.  Better cold formality than a boar to the belly, I'd say.

FWIW I interpreted "underage hostage" to mean that Sansa was more vulnerable than a hostage who was of age, not that she was too young to marry.  But c'mon, a marriage forced on a12-year-old?  (Yes, read the wedding night scene, she was still 12.)  I don't care that she had "flowered" and therefore considered marriageable, 12 is too damn young.  Even Tyrion thought so.

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 11 July 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[danm_999]

Aleenys, on 11 July 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

Peasants can't stop the winter from coming. Tyrion could have stopped acting husbandly towards Sansa. He sees it makes her uncomfortable, what could someone want by offering to run away to someplace with his wife? He expects in the long term, by showing himself to be a good and worthy husband, for her to reciprocate and trust him. If he didn't think so he wouldn't have married her. Even he didn't think Sansa would be that cold and distant it seems.

He never expects it, he hopes in the long term he'll get her to love him by being kind and courteous.

Read the chapter where Tywin proposes the idea of them marrying, and Tyrion calls it an act of cruelty. He knows exactly how she's going to feel, he's not delusional at all that she's going to hate him.

[Winter's Knight]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 11 July 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

<snip>

I am out of likes but that was well argued.

Spoiler

As another young woman who has chosen not to have children to avoid passing on her own physical disability, I thank you for sharing that.