98 replies to this topic

[Batman]

Most soldiers in the realm are just peasants with farming weapons. Could a standing army have possibly worked? I am not talking about a large standing army, just something in the range of 10,000 troops. That is enough to form a backbone in any armed conflict.

Could it work economically? I know Roberts loans were putting a lot of strain on the crowns finances, but could they afford a royal army with a reasonable King?

[Lady Sansa Stark]

With a reasonable king? Yes, then there could have been a royal army. But I don't think that would've worked out. I think a lot of people keep their families and Houses in mind, regardless of them being royal soldiers. Would you attack your own brothers if it were asked of you? Your father, your friends? It wouldn't have worked during Rebellion at least. Won't work now. Maybe in the future, but I don't see it happen.

[A bowl of brown]

Well I don't think there are enough people in just the Crownlands for a 10,000 man standing army to be feasible, which means using people from the rest of Westeros and as there doesn't appear to be a foreign threat to the kingdom and so the point of the army would be to put down rebellions it would have led to a conflict of loyalty for many of the sodiers. Would they be willing to go to war knowing that the army they're in may end up burning down their home?

I think political marriages and keeping good relations with the great lords was just a far cheaper way of keeping the peace and it took a couple of extreme events to start the civil wars (recognition of the bastards and Aerys' madness)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Not in the way we envision a royal army. A household guard, based off the Crowns fiefdoms around KL an reinforced during wars, yes. A real royal army financed by the "state", no. To big a country, no coin-based economy, not enough authority to succeed against the nobles.

[LuisDantas]

A royal army (or a national army) isn't generally speaking a very good idea.  

If anything, it is a worse idea in Westeros, where regional identities are so important and the strains of war are already so troublesome.

[The Scum]

Who would they be fighting other than an Other or Essos invasion?
Any other deployment would be classed as Civil war with all those problems of divided loyalty; then there is logistics.

It's not to say some national training or academy is a bad idea so that when the Dothraki horde lands the armies of the lands can join up and fight as one.

A 10,000 man Royal policing force is a different subject.

[Cadiva]

A Royal Army wouldn't work within the feudal system of Westeros, same as there wasn't one in the Middle England period GRRM is inspired by. Families raised troops from their own lands and then picked a side to fight on. The ruler's army wasn't always the biggest either, depends on whether they were considered to be a good or bad king.
Also, as has been said, there's no "enemy" to have a standing army raised against. There's no real threat of invasion from outside of Westeros other than from beyond the Wall so, technically, the Nights Watch is Westeros' standing army. They're the only group of people formed to face a real and substantial threat which isn't internal politic.

[Darth Rivers]

Batman, on 11 July 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

Most soldiers in the realm are just peasants with farming weapons.

Incorrect. Most soldiers in the realm are well equipped retainers and militiamen. Just read the damn books, ffs, and not your own presumptions about feudalism.

And no, a standing army could not work, because that is not politically viable from the great nobles' point of view. The king is not powerful enough to go against his nobles yet.

[E-Ro]

Batman, on 11 July 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

Most soldiers in the realm are just peasants with farming weapons.

I dont know what gave you this idea but simply its wrong, There is no mention of anyone using farming tools in battle.
Edit Ninjad by rivers.

Edited by E-Ro, 11 July 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[The Fallen]

Aren't a lot of the foot soldiers regular common folk? They don't fight with hoes and such, I would assume they get equipped by their lord.

[Independent George]

E-Ro, on 11 July 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

I dont know what gave you this idea but simply its wrong, There is no mention of anyone using farming tools in battle.

Darth Rivers, on 11 July 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Incorrect. Most soldiers in the realm are well equipped retainers and militiamen. Just read the damn books, ffs, and not your own presumptions about feudalism.

I'm pretty sure that comes from Septon Maribald in FFC, and I'm pretty sure I've read something similar in at least one location. I don't have my Kindle handy to search, but I'm fairly certain there was a description of how the majority of the levies consisted largely of peasants lashing together crude mauls and spears to take into battle. Regardless, the rudeness is uncalled for.

[pamparius]

Batman, on 11 July 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

Most soldiers in the realm are just peasants with farming weapons. Could a standing army have possibly worked? I am not talking about a large standing army, just something in the range of 10,000 troops. That is enough to form a backbone in any armed conflict.

Could it work economically? I know Roberts loans were putting a lot of strain on the crowns finances, but could they afford a royal army with a reasonable King?

Probably not, with empty coffers and a huge deficit in loans owed to the Iron bank I very much doubt they could afford to recruit, train, house and feed a standing army 24/7. Even during more prosperous years it seems unlikely that they would have the resources to maintain a large standing army. At the very least you'd have to levvy new taxes on both the peasantry and your vassals. It would just be a highly unpopular move, IMO.

[pamparius]

LuisDantas, on 11 July 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

A royal army (or a national army) isn't generally speaking a very good idea.  

If anything, it is a worse idea in Westeros, where regional identities are so important and the strains of war are already so troublesome.

I think he meant a standing army in addition to the garrisons commanded by the various lords, which are somewhat different (and much smaller) than a standing army.

[E-Ro]

No, see tyrions description of his fathers army in got, see the men the karstarks bring and the manderlys, give me a minute I will provide quotes.

[Anvilbreaker]

First of all there is evidence in the books of peasants being the backbone of the war, and in a predominantly agrarian society they would make up the vast majority of the population, and thus would have to the majority of the army. Maribald provides a ton of evidence to this. Further more in a number of chapters that show the thoughts of great lords, they worry about not having their farmers back home to get in one last harvest before winter comes. They would have some decent weapons, but those would come from their lords.

Edited by Anvilbreaker, 11 July 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[E-Ro]

Taken directly from got: Ser wylis and ser wendel followed leading their levies near fifteen hundred men: some twenty odd knights and as many squires, Two hundred mounted lances,swordsmen,freeriders, and the rest foot armed with spears and pikes.

The karstarks came in on a cold windy morning, bringing three hundred horse and near 2,000 foot from their castle karhold. The steel points of their pikes winked in the pale sunlight as the column approched.

So no, no farming tools.

[The Fallen]

E-Ro, on 11 July 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

No, see tyrions description of his fathers army in got, see the men the karstarks bring and the manderlys, give me a minute I will provide quotes.

   I would agree that the Lannisters can probably field a better army than most. But I would think that places like the North, Dorne and the Crownlands would have a lot of farmers, millers, bakers, blacksmiths and such as the majority of their foot soldiers. As far as equipment, if I'm a lord I would make sure that I could provide my men with swords and some type of protection for the body. Even if it's old. Then on the battlefield I would make sure to grab a hostage that could bring me a nice ransom to pay for all that stuff.

[E-Ro]

In the dawn light the army of lord Tywin lannister unfolded like an iron rose, thorns gleaming. His uncle would lead the center. Ser kevan had raised his standards above the kingsroad. quivers hanging from their belts, the foot archers arrayed themselves into three long lines, to east and west of the road calmly stringing their bows. Between them pikemen formed squares behind were rank upon rank of men at arms with spear and sword and axe. Three hundred heavy horse surrounded ser kevan and the lords bannermen lefford, lyden, and serret with all their sworn retainers. The right wing was all cavalry some four thousand men, heavy with the weight of their armor. more then three quarters of the knights were there, massed together like a steel fist.... His lord father took his place on a hill were he slept. around him the reserve assembled a huge force half mounted half foot five thousand strong.

[998]

E-Ro, on 11 July 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Taken directly from got: Ser wylis and ser wendel followed leading their levies near fifteen hundred men: some twenty odd knights and as many squires, Two hundred mounted lances,swordsmen,freeriders, and the rest foot armed with spears and pikes.

The karstarks came in on a cold windy morning, bringing three hundred horse and near 2,000 foot from their castle karhold. The steel points of their pikes winked in the pale sunlight as the column approched.

So no, no farming tools.

They're well equipped but still could be untrained farmers.

Edited by Goldhand the Good, 11 July 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[E-Ro]

The Fallen, on 11 July 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

   I would agree that the Lannisters can probably field a better army than most. But I would think that places like the North, Dorne and the Crownlands would have a lot of farmers, millers, bakers, blacksmiths and such as the majority of their foot soldiers. As far as equipment, if I'm a lord I would make sure that I could provide my men with swords and some type of protection for the body. Even if it's old. Then on the battlefield I would make sure to grab a hostage that could bring me a nice ransom to pay for all that stuff.

No doubt they are peasents, this does not mean they are not equiped and trained.