292 replies to this topic

[Lady Storm]

One of the themes and ground points for the books is the way society is organized. Parts of this are the strict sexual norms and a strong patriarchal structure. We have focused before on how the patriarchy in the ASOIAF world harms and affects women. With this topic, I wish we would analyze the other side of this coin – what this type of societal organization does to men. There are a couple topics I would like to focus on, but there are multiple more and I’d like for everyone to participate with ideas about what they want to analyze. I have another one ready to be written, about the masculinity and patriarchy and how it affects (for a lack of a better word) career choices, but I prefer to start this one first and than continue on a similar note later.

So, first topic:
1. “What makes a man the lady’s man?” aka Sexuality, looks and attraction.

A. On sexual attraction

It seems that it’s not required of men to look good in order to be attractive. Sure, there are some who are generally regarded as handsome (Renly, young Robert, Jaime, Loras) and this is a plus for them, until some doom takes away their looks (or life, in the case of Renly). Robert becomes fat, Loras is devastated and then crippled, Jaime looses a hand. And yet this does not remove genuine female interest in them. We have the prostitute in love with the new-old Robert, Cersei still wanting Jaime and Brienne being interested in Jaime. We haven’t seen Loras yet, but that’s probably going to be the case with him too. But moving the point even further, some men who are ugly from the start seem to find women with genuine interest in them: Sam with Gilly and Tyrion with Tysha are good examples.

However, Sam and Tyrion only get the girls after they have “proven” themselves “worthy”. Sam the fat coward never got the girl, but Sam the Slayer, Sam the Knight helping a damsel in distress did.
Tyrion the dwarf never got any attention from the girls either, but Tyrion the rescuer did.
Even the Hound, who is described as very scarred gets an un-Kiss for his knightly (oh, how he would despise this adjective) behavior with Sansa.

The conclusion is this: If a man wants to be attractive to women, he should be a knight. If he’s not, he’d sure as hell find a way to look like one, and find it fast, otherwise he is doomed. So while women need to be the Fair Maid, men need to play the counterpart and be the Just Knight. And while this stereotype is not what Sansa introduced us to with her early fantasies, it’s a stereotype nonetheless and one equally unrealistic to uphold.
This idea works on two levels – the first is the in-book experience. The characters in books seem to struggle with it and it harms them significantly.
But the other level is us, readers. We are equally exposed to this ideal. Why wasn’t Tysha a girl who liked the stories Tyrion told her? Why wasn’t Gilly in love with Sam, the nice person? Why is there a need for men to be “heroic” in order to get love?


B. On sexual pleasure

Men are not expected to and generally do not provide sexual satisfaction to the women they are with, and even our “good” guys are guilty of this. Cats “aching loins”, Dany “using her pillow to muffle her cries of pain”, than we have “Tyrion suspected her delight was feigned, but she did it so well that it did not matter” and many more. We have but a few examples of men providing pleasure to their partners. The first being LF with Lysa – we don’t really know what went on there, but she seemed to have enjoyed it. There is a hint that Jaime wasn’t so bad, Cersei said that it was only ever good with Jaime, but while we see her lust and longing, we don't really get to see her coming in their sex scenes.
Dany gets to like sex with Drogo eventually, but the first orgasm she achieves is with Irri.

Now the only two instants I recall of a female orgasm being described (disregarding the F/F scenes) are
Tyrion again:

Quote

He kissed her again, and licked at her secret sweetness, on and on until his beard and her cunt were both soaked. When she gave a soft moan and shuddered…

followed by him “exploding”.

The other is Jon and the Lord’s kiss:

Quote

…but Ygritte moved her legs apart a little, and he saw the pink inside and kissed that as well, and tasted her. She gave a little gasp…“You know nothing, Jon Snow. Noth - oh. Oh. OHHH

This is followed by Ygritte wondering what kind of a kiss was that.
Now it seems quite tragic that a woman belonging to the free folk, a woman who’s been sexually active for years, has no conception of what cunnilingus is.

But, as Jon states in the same chapter, he has no ideas what lords and ladies do in their castles. And how could he, or anyone else, since there’s no sex ed, no internet and this is not a lunch-time topic. So the only way for men to learn about sex is the way Tyrion and LF learned – women educated in the secrets of pleasure, provided that the men are interested in learning.  This is quite tragic for the women in question, but is also the tragedy of Ned, Drogo and some others. It’s not necessarily the lack of interest in woman’s pleasure; it’s the complete sexual inadequacy to provide them with it. Since your wife (or a prostitute) is going to have sex with you anyways, there is no real need for a sexual connection. So women are learned not to expect it (“every man is beautiful in his way”) and demand it, and men aren’t learned that it exists beyond the “in-and-out” mode. This patriarchal structure, that robs women of the possibility to truly reject men and their sexual advances, also robs men of the possibility to provide a genuine, caring and satisfying sexual relationship.

Now in conclusion, I'm not saying that being a man in Westeros is generally terrible. But there are some very strong expectations and problems the men are facing, and they seem to reject and question them less than the women do. The very system that keeps them in power also seems to give them unrealistic expectations about themselves and it takes away one of the very few chances for something nice in a chaotic, ugly world they live in.

So, do you believe this structure harms men? In what ways? Am I being unjust calling the majority of Westeros men sexually inadequate? What defines an attractive man in Westeros?

[Swordsaint]

If a woman's loins don't ache he's not doing it right. If I remember correctly Cat said it was a good ache. You're being unjust, specially when you mention Ned.

Tyrion and LF are professionals so they don't count.

Dany has had good sex and bad sex. Mostly good unfortunately, and I'd rather her not lock dragons up while day dreaming of Daario.  

As for attraction it's the same as real life. A knight in terms of their world means a well built man with a good job. A good provider for a family, both eugenically and financially. Think of a knight like the professional athletes of their era.

The rest are just either just lucky or victims of circumstance through rape, or forced marriages where nobody cares how the woman feels.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lady Storm, on 12 July 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

However, Sam and Tyrion only get the girls after they have “proven” themselves “worthy”. Sam the fat coward never got the girl, but Sam the Slayer, Sam the Knight helping a damsel in distress did.
Tyrion the dwarf never got any attention from the girls either, but Tyrion the rescuer did.
Even the Hound, who is described as very scarred gets an un-Kiss for his knightly (oh, how he would despise this adjective) behavior with Sansa.

There seems to be a running theme with looking past the surface with perhaps especially Sam and the Hound (who really occupy the extreme ends of the male spectrum in many regards). Also, for Sam, it seems that it was a way for him to stop looking at himself as only "Sam the fat coward" but that he really had to sort of step outside of that role and be something else, something more.

The UnKiss, does this memory get created only due to hsi knightly behaviour? It's certainly something that shows somewhat of a mirror to how Sam had to step outside of his Sa the Fat Coward role and how Sansa somehow sees Sandor outside of his "I'm just a butcher" type of role.

Tyrion, I assume this is in relation to Tysha and not Penny? Personally I think Tyrion was a bit too young to really take on a different role with Tysha, since he didn't really have one formed. But perhaps he will get a new chance with Penny to actually be more, I don't know, upstanding, and not just fall back on "everything bad happens to me because I am a dwarf", since he says himself to Jon Snow that he should accept his status and make it his strength, but Tyrion hasn't really followed his own advice.

[Lady Storm]

Swordsaint, on 12 July 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

If a woman's loins don't ache he's not doing it right. If I remember correctly Cat said it was a good ache. You're being unjust, specially when you mention Ned.

She also said it was "urgent" love-making and that he'd just roll of her and out of the bed every time.

Swordsaint, on 12 July 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

As for attraction it's the same as real life. A knight in terms of their world means a well built man with a good job. A good provider for a family, both eugenically and financially. Think of a knight like the professional athletes of their era.

Yes, and I get how that would be the "ideal" of the society. But I get the feeling this is also the "truth" of the setting, and that I don't like so much.

Lyanna Stark, on 12 July 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

There seems to be a running theme with looking past the surface with perhaps especially Sam and the Hound (who really occupy the extreme ends of the male spectrum in many regards). Also, for Sam, it seems that it was a way for him to stop looking at himself as only "Sam the fat coward" but that he really had to sort of step outside of that role and be something else, something more.

The UnKiss, does this memory get created only due to hsi knightly behaviour? It's certainly something that shows somewhat of a mirror to how Sam had to step outside of his Sa the Fat Coward role and how Sansa somehow sees Sandor outside of his "I'm just a butcher" type of role.

Yes, past the surface is definitely an important point for men there. However, the only thing that seems to be regarded as "worthy" is the inner strength in a just cause. With Sam, that is not being a fat coward, but being brave enough to slay Others and run away with the damsel. With the Hound, it seems to be softening him up and giving him jet another saving the damsel in distress aura (although less straight-forward than with Sam). And I'm guessing there's not really much to like about the Hounds surface (his psychological one, not physical) but Sam is a swell guy even when he's a fat coward. He's smart. He's educated. He's a really decent person. Why shouldn't he see himself as exactly that?

Lyanna Stark, on 12 July 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

Tyrion, I assume this is in relation to Tysha and not Penny? Personally I think Tyrion was a bit too young to really take on a different role with Tysha, since he didn't really have one formed. But perhaps he will get a new chance with Penny to actually be more, I don't know, upstanding, and not just fall back on "everything bad happens to me because I am a dwarf", since he says himself to Jon Snow that he should accept his status and make it his strength, but Tyrion hasn't really followed his own advice.

Perhaps, although I'd prefer it to be someone else than Penny. I'd like him to start seeing women beyond their appearance and find one that's his intellectual match, and in return get her to like him for exactly what he is, nothing more and nothing less

[The BlackBear]

Hmmmm. Interesting points.
I think the prostitute was more affectionate for Robert, he's fat yes, but he's very fun, and was described as very charismatic once, so presumeably he can use that when he wants to.
Sansa and the Hound was the only girl who seems to have cared about him, and she's still scared of him at least a bit. His chivalry is the thing that sets him apart (please don't kill me Sandor!) Loras will probably look an absolute wreck, worse than Sandor, and might not be able to fight again. Apart from his Rose thing he's not particularly charming it seems, and besides he only had interest in one guy, and now he's gone, he has no interest in making the effort again.
I'm a little confused by the Tysha thing, I thought the point was she was interested in him. The Jaime whore thing was a bluff (she might turn out to be in it for the money all along.) Hense why Tyrion is so keen to find her.
I'm not so sure about the sex thing, certainly some men are selfish, but that can be said for nowadays too. I think Littlefinger Lysa; she's obsessed with the guy, she's just enjoying herself for obvious reasons, and letting everyone know it. Otherwise I'm impresssed with his little finger...

Edited by The BlackBear, 12 July 2012 - 03:00 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

That was quick work, m'lady!

I've got a quick summary of our main male PoV's ideas of sex:

• The Ned: barely thinks of it. I know I joke about Nedbert but sweet Ned's thoughts are remarkable in that he barely thinks of Cat at all. Not when he hears that she's nabbed Tyrion, nor when he's in the cells, nothing. He does ponder on what she'd do if she had to kill Jon to save her own children, but really-not even a mention of their wedding day/night. He does spend a lot of time thinking of how  fine Bob looked in his youth.
  
• Jon Snow: easily the healthiest (and most skilled) gent when it comes to giving pleasure. Although he begins reluctantly (and with much weeping over broken vows), his relationship with Ygritte is on a more-orless equal footing with a mutual give and take.
  
• Tyrion "Three Stroke" Lannister: The imp's sex scenes read like a Mcheal Bay movie-explosions all over the place. He likes to think he's good in bed but apart from the one instance with the Lord's Kiss, his technique is very "kiss kiss bang bang" and not in a good way. At first I was inclined to blame this on his rather obvious issues arising with the Tysha incident but then it struck me-she wept when he slept with her didn't he? Is that normal? Help a gal out here.
  
• Jaime Lannister: Extremely faithful, he's slept with one woman his whole life-sure it was his twin but hey who's perfect? It's a bit hard to tell if he's good in the sack. Cersei thinks so but the only other partner she had was Robert B., whose performance in bed seems similar to his performance on the hunt-violent, painful and no fun for the other party. He also can't seem to hear the word "no" as shown in the infamous Moonsbloodgae incident.
  
• Theon Greyoy: Harsh, selfish and sometimes cruel, Theon doesn't make love, he takes his pleasure with no respect for his partner.
  
• Davos Seaworth: For a series that makes much and more of a "man's needs", it is strange to have two adult male PoV's who barely mention the act. Apart from some passing references to his wife (I think he mentions she has saggy breasts?) most of Davos' thoughts are fixed on Stannis.
  Maybe it's a Baratheon family thing-Starks are wargs, Lannisters are rich and Baratheons act as cold showers?
  
• Sam Tarly: Lets face it, the boy's a sex God-apart from him, the only other guy whose member qualifies as a character in it's own right is Tormund and that guy had to shag a bear to get in.
  
• Areo Hotah: Wed to his axe and not in the fun way.
  
• Victarion Greyjoy: Half as nice as Theon, and twice as dumb.
  
• Aeron Greyjoy:What is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger than before.
  
• Quentyn Martell:What can I say, the boy's smoking.

Edited by Winter's Knight, 12 July 2012 - 03:05 AM.

[The BlackBear]

The end of sex is always urgent
And lets face it, the nice guys always come second. This is realistic fantasy, and in real life, a lot of girls go for rich bastards. Not particularly romantic but it's the truth. This works both ways of course, Tyrion is all about appearances. Sansa is constantly reduced to a sexual commodity, IN AN EXTREMELY FRIGHTENING WAY SANSA HATERS!
I've known plenty of fat nice girls, but I never really felt attracted to them. I don't like that I'm that shallow but I am. A hell of a lot of you are too.
And on the greyjoy front, they seems to think it's their right to rape people (including septons! It's still gay you viking twats.) The only exception is Asha, but she clearly gets some of hers from Quarl is it? The one who doesn't have a beard.

(On an editing spree!)

Edited by The BlackBear, 12 July 2012 - 03:12 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

The BlackBear, on 12 July 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

The end of sex is always urgent

I am but a young girl and ignorant in the ways of love but it strikes me that there's a difference between "urgent" and "exploded in three strokes".

[Thunderfist]

Lady Storm, on 12 July 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

One of the themes and ground points for the books is the way society is organized. Parts of this are the strict sexual norms and a strong patriarchal structure. We have focused before on how the patriarchy in the ASOIAF world harms and affects women. With this topic, I wish we would analyze the other side of this coin – what this type of societal organization does to men. There are a couple topics I would like to focus on, but there are multiple more and I’d like for everyone to participate with ideas about what they want to analyze. I have another one ready to be written, about the masculinity and patriarchy and how it affects (for a lack of a better word) career choices, but I prefer to start this one first and than continue on a similar note later.

So, first topic:
1. “What makes a man the lady’s man?” aka Sexuality, looks and attraction.

A. On sexual attraction

It seems that it’s not required of men to look good in order to be attractive. Sure, there are some who are generally regarded as handsome (Renly, young Robert, Jaime, Loras) and this is a plus for them, until some doom takes away their looks (or life, in the case of Renly). Robert becomes fat, Loras is devastated and then crippled, Jaime looses a hand. And yet this does not remove genuine female interest in them. We have the prostitute in love with the new-old Robert, Cersei still wanting Jaime and Brienne being interested in Jaime. We haven’t seen Loras yet, but that’s probably going to be the case with him too. But moving the point even further, some men who are ugly from the start seem to find women with genuine interest in them: Sam with Gilly and Tyrion with Tysha are good examples.

Robert is the king and thus he is one of the most powerful people in the world, power and influence is always attractive, in our world and in Westeros as well. In your example with the prostitute, is it so hard to imagine that a poor girl with a rough background falls in love with a powerful and charming person who is somewhat kind and affectionate towards her, regardless of the way that person looks.

We don´t know what has or has not happened to Loras Tyrell, so there´s no point in speculating or to assume one way or the other

Regarding Jaime, it seems to me that Cersei becomes less and less interested in him, both due to his change in personality and his change in appearance. Brienne might have some interest in Jaime but that seems to be mutual, remember the bath house scene.

I´m not really buying these as examples that women are capable of loving unattractive men because the situations are so unique and we haven´t had a big enough sampling to be able to really determine anything

Lady Storm, on 12 July 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

However, Sam and Tyrion only get the girls after they have “proven” themselves “worthy”. Sam the fat coward never got the girl, but Sam the Slayer, Sam the Knight helping a damsel in distress did.
Tyrion the dwarf never got any attention from the girls either, but Tyrion the rescuer did.
Even the Hound, who is described as very scarred gets an un-Kiss for his knightly (oh, how he would despise this adjective) behavior with Sansa.

The conclusion is this: If a man wants to be attractive to women, he should be a knight. If he’s not, he’d sure as hell find a way to look like one, and find it fast, otherwise he is doomed. So while women need to be the Fair Maid, men need to play the counterpart and be the Just Knight. And while this stereotype is not what Sansa introduced us to with her early fantasies, it’s a stereotype nonetheless and one equally unrealistic to uphold.
This idea works on two levels – the first is the in-book experience. The characters in books seem to struggle with it and it harms them significantly.
But the other level is us, readers. We are equally exposed to this ideal. Why wasn’t Tysha a girl who liked the stories Tyrion told her? Why wasn’t Gilly in love with Sam, the nice person? Why is there a need for men to be “heroic” in order to get love?

Because if the books were about a bunch of people who met during completely normal circumstances, got to know eachother and developed a relationship, they wouldn´t be ASoIaF. Tysha met Tyrion when she was rescued from the rapists, we don´t know what would have happened if they had met somewhere else. Sam had contact with Gilly after he had slain the other, we can´t tell what would have happened if the situation had been different. Maybe Gilly would have grown to love Sam with or without him being the Slayer. Both Tyrion and Sam are young when they have these encounters, and they are also, for different reasons, extremely socially awkward. It doesn´t seem like a stretch that a kid that´s 14-15, has some major physical disadvantages and not much life experience has problems getting girls. We can´t tell what would happen when they had grown older and more mature, all we know is that in the books, they met their first love interest during some extraordinary situations.

[Jolene Brown]

Sansa thinks of it as a "cruel kiss," and quite frankly, I think that's part of the appeal... it's romanticized in a strange way.  She also likes to remember the bloody cloak he left her.  I definitely think that, despite the Hound's ugliness, there's something about his rough, physical nature that is appealing to her, perhaps because she is so in need of a protector... there is something appealing about the idea of this very violent man who is devoted to her, however disturbingly, when she is so vulnerable.  Perhaps that is in part what she misses about him in the Vale?  She doesn't seem to feel comfortable there (except perhaps in her final chapter in AFFC) and so it makes her want that figure, however brutish, who has defended her in the past?

I posted elsewhere on the Baratheon brothers - it fascinates me that three such utterly different men all have their strongest and most intense emotional relationship with other men - Stannis with Davos, Renly with Loras, and Robert with Ned.  I see no homoerotic undercurrents to Stannis/Davos and Robert/Ned either.  Maybe it has to do with not having a sister?  Men are just more comfortable for them to interact with?

[Swordsaint]

Winter, on 12 July 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

That was quick work, m'lady!

I've got a quick summary of our main male PoV's ideas of sex:

• The Ned: barely thinks of it. I know I joke about Nedbert but sweet Ned's thoughts are remarkable in that he barely thinks of Cat at all. Not when he hears that she's nabbed Tyrion, nor when he's in the cells, nothing. He does ponder on what she'd do if she had to kill Jon to save her own children, but really-not even a mention of their wedding day/night. He does spend a lot of time thinking of how  fine Bob looked in his youth.
  
• Jon Snow: easily the healthiest (and most skilled) gent when it comes to giving pleasure. Although he begins reluctantly (and with much weeping over broken vows), his relationship with Ygritte is on a more-orless equal footing with a mutual give and take.
  
• Tyrion "Three Stroke" Lannister: The imp's sex scenes read like a Mcheal Bay movie-explosions all over the place. He likes to think he's good in bed but apart from the one instance with the Lord's Kiss, his technique is very "kiss kiss bang bang" and not in a good way. At first I was inclined to blame this on his rather obvious issues arising with the Tysha incident but then it struck me-she wept when he slept with her didn't he? Is that normal? Help a gal out here.
  
• Jaime Lannister: Extremely faithful, he's slept with one woman his whole life-sure it was his twin but hey who's perfect? It's a bit hard to tell if he's good in the sack. Cersei thinks so but the only other partner she had was Robert B., whose performance in bed seems similar to his performance on the hunt-violent, painful and no fun for the other party. He also can't seem to hear the word "no" as shown in the infamous Moonsbloodgae incident.
  
• Theon Greyoy: Harsh, selfish and sometimes cruel, Theon doesn't make love, he takes his pleasure with no respect for his partner.
  
• Davos Seaworth: For a series that makes much and more of a "man's needs", it is strange to have two adult male PoV's who barely mention the act. Apart from some passing references to his wife (I think he mentions she has saggy breasts?) most of Davos' thoughts are fixed on Stannis.
  Maybe it's a Baratheon family thing-Starks are wargs, Lannisters are rich and Baratheons act as cold showers?
  
• Sam Tarly: Lets face it, the boy's a sex God-apart from him, the only other guy whose member qualifies as a character in it's own right is Tormund and that guy had to shag a bear to get in.
  
• Areo Hotah: Wed to his axe and not in the fun way.
  
• Victarion Greyjoy: Half as nice as Theon, and twice as dumb.
  
• Aeron Greyjoy:What is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger than before.
  
• Quentyn Martell:What can I say, the boy's smoking.

Seven Hells! Again you women are picking on poor Ned, even after Cat herself said it was good. As for him thinking about Robert, it's more about him thinking of how much Robert let himself go. Not that Robert is a hottie. This isn't broke-back-seven-kingdoms. Ned thinking of Robert was also a way of the author explaining Robert in his prime, early in the story.

As for the rest, you have an out-of-shape virgin, a man who hasn't seen his wife in who knows how long, a young teen who probably died a virgin. Ladies, you do realize these are not romance novels right?  The good guys are lucky enough to live onto the next page, and now they have to deal this? Wtf....poor Ned

Edited by Swordsaint, 12 July 2012 - 03:31 AM.

[The BlackBear]

Winter, on 12 July 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

I am but a young girl and ignorant in the ways of love but it strikes me that there's a difference between "urgent" and "exploded in three strokes".

I was referring to Ned, Tyrion seems to have a problem, like genuinely. And that above quote doesn't work, if there's one thing Dany is good at it's having sex. I swear she spends more than half her aDwD in bed with Daario.

[A song away]

You named this topic Reading Masculinity in Westeros, but the only two topics (in which you make excellent observations by the way) you named both have something to do with sexuality.

Masculinity is not just important for men in relation to women, but also to other men. An obvious victim of this is of course Sam, whose father denies him because he does not meet his requirements as a son and heir. But also Tyrion suffers of this. Revulsion of women angers him, but the one who has most hurt his self-esteem has been his father. Tywin and Randyl Tarly are both known as hard, reliable fighters. The culture of patriarchy rewards people like them, but punishes those men that do not fit in their molds.

Someone else who acts out against this is Little Finger. He was all too eager to betray manly Ned Stark, who 'took' his Cat from him. He 'fucks' people, not 'fights' them, but only because that would mean he would lose (like he did against Brandon Stark).

Viserys managed to float along until he started riding with the ubermanly Drogo and his men. The difference between them quickly exposed him to Dany. This infuriated him and drove him towards his fate.

Varys is another interesting example. He's so far removed from being the ideal man, that he could not even be one whatever he did. So he no longer cares about meeting those standards, but the continuous scorn has probably helped him become desensitized against acts like Kevan's murder.

Renly on the other hand became kind. He knew he was different and tried to hide it, but it also made him more empathic to others who did not meet their gender's requirements (like Brienne)

Lady Storm, on 12 July 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

The first being LF with Lysa – we don’t really know what went on there, but she seemed to have enjoyed it.

Understatement of the week. That was probably the scene that made me laugh the most

Edited by A song away, 12 July 2012 - 03:44 AM.

[Swordsaint]

The BlackBear, on 12 July 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

I was referring to Ned, Tyrion seems to have a problem, like genuinely. And that above quote doesn't work, if there's one thing Dany is good at it's having sex. I swear she spends more than half her aDwD in bed with Daario.

aDwD stands for "A Dance with Daario." We got three paragraphs the entire book about dragon action. Dragon cooks Martell, Dany flies on Drogon, Dany & Drogon land on a Dothraki. And all of that wasn't until three quarters of book was finished. I pray Tyrion gives Daario three quick pumps too. (with his crossbow)

[Lady Storm]

The BlackBear, on 12 July 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

I was referring to Ned, Tyrion seems to have a problem, like genuinely. And that above quote doesn't work, if there's one thing Dany is good at it's having sex. I swear she spends more than half her aDwD in bed with Daario.

Oh, Dany is. But Dany is the Mother of Dragons, Slayer of lies, The Unburnt and so on. Dany makes the rules and Dany has the power to reject men. Look at poor Jorah. Or Xaro.

Swordsaint, on 12 July 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

As for the rest, you have an out-of-shape virgin, a man who hasn't seen his wife in who knows how long, a young teen who probably died a virgin. Ladies, you do realize these are not romance novels right?  The good guys are lucky enough to live onto the next page, and now they have to deal this? Wtf....poor Ned

Well not romance novels, but they they do involve sex and love - it's in the text. And I'm not blaming poor Ned - in fact, the OP states that I'm blaming the patriarch system

Jolene Brown, on 12 July 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

I definitely think that, despite the Hound's ugliness, there's something about his rough, physical nature that is appealing to her, perhaps because she is so in need of a protector... there is something appealing about the idea of this very violent man who is devoted to her, however disturbingly, when she is so vulnerable.  Perhaps that is in part what she misses about him in the Vale?  She doesn't seem to feel comfortable there (except perhaps in her final chapter in AFFC) and so it makes her want that figure, however brutish, who has defended her in the past?

Ay, for sure. But only because he has a "Just Cause" - Sansa. So his brutishness is a virtue, a weapon used to save the maiden. Arya doesn't see him as such a figure even though he has changed, because there's no Arya-cause related to the Hound.

Thunderfist, on 12 July 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

I´m not really buying these as examples that women are capable of loving unattractive men because the situations are so unique and we haven´t had a big enough sampling to be able to really determine anything

But that's exactly what they are. How many ugly men have women liking them for what they are? HOw many ugly man are compleatly deprived of love? And how many ugly women have the same? Lollys? Fat Walda? Selsye?

But that's not really the poin. The point was that they need to be something other than themselves to earn thelove. It's fine if you're ugly, as long as you're brave. Which is as bad as "It's fine if you're stupid, as long as you're pretty".

Thunderfist, on 12 July 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

Both Tyrion and Sam are young when they have these encounters, and they are also, for different reasons, extremely socially awkward. It doesn´t seem like a stretch that a kid that´s 14-15, has some major physical disadvantages and not much life experience has problems getting girls. We can´t tell what would happen when they had grown older and more mature, all we know is that in the books, they met their first love interest during some extraordinary situations.

Sure, maybe they would. But why don't we ever get to see this with someone?

[ARYa_Nym]

Gerris is the best. Drop me in Westeros and he's mine. I would ship him with my favorite Arya but he unfortunately is a man so this will not do. I'll ship her with age appropriate Edric Dayne instead.

Attractive? Check.

Quote

“Tall and fair, with blue-green eyes, sandy hair streaked by the sun, and a lean and comely body, Gerris Drinkwater had a swagger to him, a confidence bordering on arrogance.”

Quote

“Drinkwater had a pretty face, a glib tongue, and a fine head of hair.”

Intelligent? Check.

Quote

“What has love to do with marriage?” A prince should know better. Your father married for love, it’s said. How much joy has he had of that?”

Quote

"Fuck your lineage," said Gerris. "The dragons won't care about your blood, except maybe how it tastes. You cannot tame a dragon with a history lesson. They're monsters, not maesters..."

Funny? Has personality and is not boring/stiff/dull? Check.

Quote

“I would sell my mother for a bit of breeze,” said Gerris, as they rolled through the dockside throngs. “It’s moist as the Maiden’s cunt, and still shy of noon. I hate this city.”

Quote

“…Quentyn was our friend, yes. A bit of a fool, you might say, but all dreamers are fools…”

Knows about sex? Check.

Quote

“Men may be fond of maidens, but women like a man who knows what he’s about in the bedchamber. It’s another sort of swordplay. Takes training to be good at it.”

Quote

“I could take you to the Temple of Graces and find a girl for you.” “A whore, you mean.” “They call them Graces. They come in different colors. The red ones are the only ones who fuck.”

Quote

“Ser Gerris was all his prince was not: tall and lean and comely, with a swordman’s grace and a courtier’s wit. Selmy did not doubt that many a Dornish maiden had run her ringers through that sun-streaked hair and kissed that teasing smile off his lips.”

He can be douchey but whatever. It's not in a Joffrey way but more in a bro type. It's harmless.

Quote

“I told him it was folly. I begged him to go home. Your bitch of a queen had no use for him, any man could see that…” “She spurned him. He offered her his heart, and she threw it back at him and went off to fuck her sellsword.”

Ned comes off stiff to me. I don't know why Brandon gets criticized for liking sex. It's natural. & he did what Robb should have done. If you sleep with a girl you're not obligated to marry her. He never promised Barbrey marriage anyway. Also, you just know that Brandon was good because it's nearly two decades later and she still can't get over it.

Jon is repressed. I hope that either getting stabbed or Dany will fix this. The problem is just getting him to have sex. Once the girl gets over that hurdle it's on and he appears to be one of the few attentive lovers.

Quote

"It happened twice more that night, and again in the morning...Like a pair of rutting dogs..."

Quote

"..He had been in her half a hundred times by now..."

I'm skeptical of the Loras story so I'm not sure if he's really disfigured.

Poor Brienne needs some girlfriends who will steer her in the right direction. She has bad taste in men. Renly is gay (there's nothing wrong with that but she is a female) and Jaime is a monster IMO.

Both Tyrion and Drogo have done a three strokes then it was over in the books.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 12 July 2012 - 03:50 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Jolene Brown, on 12 July 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

Sansa thinks of it as a "cruel kiss," and quite frankly, I think that's part of the appeal... it's romanticized in a strange way.  She also likes to remember the bloody cloak he left her.  I definitely think that, despite the Hound's ugliness, there's something about his rough, physical nature that is appealing to her, perhaps because she is so in need of a protector... there is something appealing about the idea of this very violent man who is devoted to her, however disturbingly, when she is so vulnerable.  Perhaps that is in part what she misses about him in the Vale?  She doesn't seem to feel comfortable there (except perhaps in her final chapter in AFFC) and so it makes her want that figure, however brutish, who has defended her in the past?

Perhaps interestingly in this context, Dany of ADWD describes Daario using somewhat similar words.

"The girl in her wanted to kiss him so much it hurt. His kisses would be hard and cruel, she told herself, and he would not care if I cried out of commanded him to stop. But the queen in her knew that would be folly."

Daario is also almost the only man to encourage Dany's more fiery "dragon" side and to remind her that Queens are normally married off to some King to make babies and remain off screen. He's also, well, I think "unsuitable" comes to mind.

Swordsaint, on 12 July 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

Seven Hells! Again you women are picking on poor Ned, even after Cat herself said it was good. As for him thinking about Robert, it's more about him thinking of how much Robert let himself go. Not that Robert is a hottie. This isn't broke-back-seven-kingdoms. Ned thinking of Robert was also a way of the author explaining Robert in his prime, early in the story.

As for the rest, you have an out-of-shape virgin, a man who hasn't seen his wife in who knows how long, a young teen who probably died a virgin. Ladies, you do realize these are not romance novels right?  The good guys are lucky enough to live onto the next page, and now they have to deal this? Wtf....poor Ned

The point is more that Cat actually thinks about Ned and how she loved him. She thinks of his smile and when she sees her bones she refuses to think of them as what is left of Ned, since they don't look anything like the man she loved.

As for ASOIAF not being a romance, perhaps you should read the essay Ran and Linda kindly linked a while ago. Plus of course, what is the framing narrative of the story? What were the metaphorical shots in Sarajevo when it came to Robert's rebellion? Why it was a romance gone wrong: Rhaegar and Lyanna. A lot of the drive from the story comes from romance, or relationships between characters: Jaime/Cersei, Littlefinger/Cat, Littlefinger/Lysa, Jorah/Lyonesee, Jorah/Dany, etc. You can continue believing that romance, love and infatuation play no role, but I believe there are lots of evidence to the contrary.

Lady Storm, on 12 July 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

But that's exactly what they are. How many ugly men have women liking them for what they are? HOw many ugly man are compleatly deprived of love? And how many ugly women have the same? Lollys? Fat Walda? Selsye?

The obvious one here is Brienne, of course. Asha and Ellaria Sand are also described as not conventionally attractive, but not ugly by a long shot.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 12 July 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Winter, on 12 July 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

That was quick work, m'lady!

I've got a quick summary of our main male PoV's ideas of sex:

• The Ned: barely thinks of it. I know I joke about Nedbert but sweet Ned's thoughts are remarkable in that he barely thinks of Cat at all. Not when he hears that she's nabbed Tyrion, nor when he's in the cells, nothing. He does ponder on what she'd do if she had to kill Jon to save her own children, but really-not even a mention of their wedding day/night. He does spend a lot of time thinking of how  fine Bob looked in his youth.
  
• Jon Snow: easily the healthiest (and most skilled) gent when it comes to giving pleasure. Although he begins reluctantly (and with much weeping over broken vows), his relationship with Ygritte is on a more-orless equal footing with a mutual give and take.
  
• Tyrion "Three Stroke" Lannister: The imp's sex scenes read like a Mcheal Bay movie-explosions all over the place. He likes to think he's good in bed but apart from the one instance with the Lord's Kiss, his technique is very "kiss kiss bang bang" and not in a good way. At first I was inclined to blame this on his rather obvious issues arising with the Tysha incident but then it struck me-she wept when he slept with her didn't he? Is that normal? Help a gal out here.
  
• Jaime Lannister: Extremely faithful, he's slept with one woman his whole life-sure it was his twin but hey who's perfect? It's a bit hard to tell if he's good in the sack. Cersei thinks so but the only other partner she had was Robert B., whose performance in bed seems similar to his performance on the hunt-violent, painful and no fun for the other party. He also can't seem to hear the word "no" as shown in the infamous Moonsbloodgae incident.
  
• Theon Greyoy: Harsh, selfish and sometimes cruel, Theon doesn't make love, he takes his pleasure with no respect for his partner.
  
• Davos Seaworth: For a series that makes much and more of a "man's needs", it is strange to have two adult male PoV's who barely mention the act. Apart from some passing references to his wife (I think he mentions she has saggy breasts?) most of Davos' thoughts are fixed on Stannis.
  Maybe it's a Baratheon family thing-Starks are wargs, Lannisters are rich and Baratheons act as cold showers?
  
• Sam Tarly: Lets face it, the boy's a sex God-apart from him, the only other guy whose member qualifies as a character in it's own right is Tormund and that guy had to shag a bear to get in.
  
• Areo Hotah: Wed to his axe and not in the fun way.
  
• Victarion Greyjoy: Half as nice as Theon, and twice as dumb.
  
• Aeron Greyjoy:What is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger than before.
  
• Quentyn Martell:What can I say, the boy's smoking.

Agreed with most of what you said, but Cersei definitely had more experience than just Jaime and Bob. Lancel, Osmund, Moon Boy(?)... So if she says it was ever only good with Jaime, I think we should take her word for it.

[Lady Storm]

A song away, on 12 July 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

You named this topic Reading Masculinity in Westeros, but the only two topics (in which you make excellent observations by the way) you named both have something to do with sexuality.

Masculinity is not just important for men in relation to women, but also to other men. An obvious victim of this is of course Sam, whose father denies him because he does not meet his requirements as a son and heir. But also Tyrion suffers of this. Revulsion of women angers him, but the one who has most hurt his self-esteem has been his father. Tywin and Randyl Tarly are both known as hard, reliable fighters. The culture of patriarchy rewards people like them, but punishes those men that do not fit in their molds.

I know, I struggled how to start it and intended to put another part in about the career choices in which I'd talk about male-to-male relations, but since the OP turned to be so large with only two points, decided to drop it for later. But thank you for making a really good contribution and analysis of the point I've missed.

Not to quote the entire analysis, yes, this is a side-effect to patriarchy. In order for men to claim that men should rule, men need to have qualities that differentiate them from women. So men are strong, protective, in power, good fighters, inspire loyalty whereas women do not. But this bounds apply the other way around to. So if men can rule because they have qualities that define men, than the absence of there qualities makes you an absolute failure. That means you're not entitled to be a part of the cool-kids-gang, and it's not women that kick you out, it's other men. The same men who probably have a few feminine "flaws" as well, but try their best to hide it.

That's why Robert is angry and not sad about Lyanna, that's why LF is scheming and not seducing etc.

[A song away]

Lady Storm, on 12 July 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

But this bounds apply the other way around to. So if men can rule because they have qualities that define men, than the absence of there qualities makes you an absolute failure. That means you're not entitled to be a part of the cool-kids-gang, and it's not women that kick you out, it's other men. The same men who probably have a few feminine "flaws" as well, but try their best to hide it.

Exactly. People like Tywin and Randyll are by themselves very close to what is expected of a man (unless they have hidden their Westeros equivalent of My Little Ponies for years) and are therefore the least patient with those who are not. It seems to personally insult them when a son falls short and they can simply not comprehend why they act that way.

People like Ned, who is still viewed as manly, but has a mild side as well, can be kinder. He also struggles with other issues (like honour) and not so much with being perceived as manly or not. This became a weakness, because he had no idea of the effects on a guy like LF.

On those who really don't get anywhere near this ideal, it has severe repurcussions. The genius of GRRM is that they don't all respond in the same way to this (as they would in books written by lesser writers). Sam becomes a 'craven' and sees himself as useless. LF attacks in underhanded ways, since he can't win in the 'regular' way. Renly is empathic. Viserys goes nuts. Varys drowns himself in his goals (like a workaholic).

Edited by A song away, 12 July 2012 - 04:20 AM.