35 replies to this topic

[If It Please]

In aCoK, Jon has a dream:

“Jon?”
The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only…
A weirwood.
It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?
“Not always,” came the silent shout. “Not before the crow.”

Is this Bran communicating with Jon? What are the implications? Bloodraven specifically said Bran wasn't able to communicate with the past, only see things. Is he wrong? Does he just not have the same abilities Bran has? If so, can Bran change the past?

I'm really confused. Sorry if this sounds like an essay type question. I need answers!

[just an Other]

This took place when Bran was hiding in the crypts of Winterfell. He mentions that he contacted Ghost and Jon and that he wasn't sure if it was real

[Fire Eater]

If you can't change the future in terms of prophecy than you sure as hell can't change the past. Past, present and future are all happening at the same time. Bran communicates from the future with Jon in the past in a way reminiscent of Terminator where the Terminator going into the past results in John Connor being conceived from when Kyle Reese goes into the past to stop the Terminator in the first place, and Sarah Connor raising John to be the military leader he becomes. The Terminator ends up indirectly causing the event he was sent to prevent.

In TWoW, I think we will see that the past isn't changed since, even after Jon is visited by Bran, it doesn't result in Bran not going back to meet Jon in his dream, Bran still does perform the stated action.

Edited by Fire Eater, 13 July 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Lemiin]

What I love about this passage, is that Jon, when hearing his brother expects to see "a lean grey shape". He is clearly looking for Summer... as if they could communicate with each other through their wolves (when they're asleep).
This is when Bran reaches out to Jon because of what's happening in Winterfell... or maybe Jon reaches out to Bran because he can feel something really important is going on, or maybe they reach out to one another...
It's a very important moment for both characters, and one of my favorite in the series, and I'm not going to say more because I'm not sure that you read the other books

[OneTrueSteve]

Fire Eater, on 12 July 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

If you can't change the future in terms of prophecy than you sure as hell can't change the past. Past, present and future are all happening at the same time. Bran communicates from the future with Jon in the past in a way reminiscent of Terminator where the Terminator going into the past results in John Connor being conceived from when Kyle Reese goes into the past to stop the Terminator in the first place, and Sarah Connor raising John to be the military leader he becomes.

In TWoW, I think we will see that the past isn't changed since, even after Jon is visited by Bran, it doesn't result in Bran not going back to meet Jon in his dream, Bran still does perform the stated action.

This just seems so much more complicated than what the books tell us.  Bran and company are hiding from Theon in the Crypts of Winterfell. Jojen keeps encouraging him to reach out and warg as much as he can.  We have this wolf dream from Jon, and in the next Bran chapter he mentions talking to Jon in a wolf dream.  No time travel needed.

[Rohed]

If It Please, on 12 July 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

In aCoK, Jon has a dream:

“Jon?”
The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only…
A weirwood.
It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?
“Not always,” came the silent shout. “Not before the crow.”

Is this Bran communicating with Jon? What are the implications? Bloodraven specifically said Bran wasn't able to communicate with the past, only see things. Is he wrong? Does he just not have the same abilities Bran has? If so, can Bran change the past?

I'm really confused. Sorry if this sounds like an essay type question. I need answers!

The highlighted part, yes at the present Bran is in Winterfell, but its the future Bran that is talking there, in his visions through the weirwoods. He is trying but clearly he is not able to fully change the past, only wisper.

Brings up a lot of questions, but to complex for me right now

[Ser Pythagoras]

Bran dreams about the three eyes crow in agot, that's all he is referring to, there's no intertime communication, don't need to over think it

[Rohed]

Had his brother always had three eyes? No, not untill the crow

The crow is teaching him in DWD, he had dreams of the crow but not the third eye. He is clearly talking through the tree, just like Eddard looking up when he tried there. And SPOILER, the theon sample, "IT KNOWS MY NAME"

TEC had been watching and waiting for ran, because he knows Brans power. Also its limits. He can try and talk with the past, but he cant change anything.

In this passage is Bran looking for Jon? The eyes were happy to see him... Might be over thinking, In SoS did bran say he reached out for Jon? Or am I thinking of a thread and theory

[David C. Hunter]

It works better if Bran is reaching back in time. Thats how I read it

[Quentyn the Blazed]

EDIT: wrong thread

Edited by QuentynTheBlazed, 12 July 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[OneTrueSteve]

Rohed, on 12 July 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

Had his brother always had three eyes? No, not untill the crow

The crow is teaching him in DWD, he had dreams of the crow but not the third eye.

The crow pecked on his forehead in his dreams until it opened his third eye back in GOT.  

This passage didn't need three more books and a time travel theory to make sense, it made sense to the reader right away.  It is only looking back on rereads that we get confused because we see two things that seem similar and immediately assume they are the same.  "Bran is warging from a dark place and talking to someone from a tree", we think. "It must be from the weirwood throne, reaching into the past."  But the book says it's from the crypts beneath Winterfell's goodswood when he's first learning to really flex his greenseeing muscles.  It gives a simpler explanation, expressed by Bran himself.

Quote

The highlighted part, yes at the present Bran is in Winterfell, but its the future Bran that is talking there, in his visions through the weirwoods.

I just don't see it.  At the present Bran is in Winterfell and states that he spoke to Jon in a dream. There's no need for future Bran to not only speak to past Jon (not through a weirwood but in a wolf dream) but then warg past Bran or mess with his memory and cause him to say that he did something (speak with Jon in a dream) that he would not do for several months at the least.

Edited by OneTrueSteve, 12 July 2012 - 11:52 PM.

[Lemiin]

The time travel debate doesn't make sense to me. (SPOILERS ADWD)
Bran clearly speaks with Jon at the present time, otherwise he wouldn't be able to "talk" to Jon. Bran can only witness and maybe whisper in the past, but with Jon he's talking to him in the present because of their bond.
In Jon's dream, he clearly says that "it smells of death", an obvious reference to the crypts. Now, I understand how it could be similar to what happens in DwD and the place Bran is at. But to me, there's no time travel whatsoever, more like Bran can see the tree's memories when he's inside of it.

The whole point of Jon's Dream in CoK, IS THAT HE HAS WOLF DREAMS TOO AND CAN REACH OUT TO BRAN THAT WAY.
Also it conforts him in his belief that BRAN AND RICKON DIED, because Bran smells of death and he's in the weirwood like a lingering spirit. It was actually the scene that made me believe in their deaths, and that now they would only be able to talk to their siblings throughout their wolves and the trees.
It's a character moment for Jon, his bond with Ghost, his warging and Bran's great power (he has 3 eyes since his first coma dream in Got, not later, though he really learns how to use them in DwD, like it was previously said). It is not about some time travel or past-changing abilities. JON IS INSIDE GHOST, PEOPLE, YAAAY !

[Scipio Africanus]

Lemiin, on 13 July 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

JON IS INSIDE GHOST, PEOPLE, YAAAY !

Didn't Jon himself say he was starting to find it difficult NOT to warg into Ghost even when he WASN'T sleeping?

[Mark Antony]

David C. Simmons, on 12 July 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

It works better if Bran is reaching back in time. Thats how I read it

He wasn't though imo, he reflects on contacting Jon and Ghost.from the crypts

Page 959 in Bran's final ACOK chapter

"He could reach Summer whenever he wanted and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that."

Edited by Mark Antony, 13 July 2012 - 05:10 AM.

[Rohed]

Is it just inconcistancy, BUT, wouldnt the wall stop him from reacging jon if he was in winterfell.

DWD Ghost can feel his brother and sister, but not summer because he is on the other side of the wall.

CH can not pass because the wall

Jon can not feel Ghost on the other side of the wall

Bran can only reach peiple on the other side by greenseer ability, crows or the weirwoods. (soon he wont need the trees)

I think it only worka from him still trying to reach people from the weirwood abilities, Bran tried to show Jon to warg?  That was after all the first time we see Jon warg

[Budj]

I agree. No time travel.  Bran and Jon connected through their wolves / Bran's greenseer powers while he was dreaming in Summer during his hiding in the crypts.

The whispering to Theon could have been in the present too as there is overlap in the timeline of the stories here.

[JJtheCrow]

I agree.  No time travel.  Actually let me say....Please,  no time travel!!!  It would just hurt my brain.

[richard_ba]

if it is really time travel the story is going to become too much complicated

[Budj]

yes - and whose to say Ned even heard anything?  For all we know the Greenseer's talking through the trees in the past are the leaves rustling in the wind.

[Rohed]

Ned looked up as if to hear somone, but to him it was a whisper,
We have a lot people mention they think to hear a voice but it was just the trees.

Bran is trying to contact people, but he cant as he was told.

"can shout be silent?" To Bran he is yelling trying to be heard, others only hear a whisper. Possibledue to jons power,location, or thier link is why jon was able to hear? Madie because he was inside Ghost also.

His brothers face looked like a wierwood, implies he is part tree mabie, or just warged into one.

Fierce eyes yet happy to see him. Implies Brans power, when in the cryts his power was just beginning. He was a scared boy hidding. I would not say he or his power is fierce yet.  

The most important factor..
Ghost COULD NOT reach summer on the other side of the wall
this means
Summer CAN NOT reach ghost on the other side of the wall.

It wouldnt have to be complex. Bran has just influenced evens we have seen from the future.
I.e.

The dragonlass cache, the wall "throwing off the wildling", jons dreams.

They might be reaching but you get my point? The connection,is more likley that Bran can talk to ghost. Mabie we will see Bran give Jon(as ghost) warnings about evens to come.

Much like mells fires, or Dany's warning.