35 replies to this topic

[Rohed]

Double post

Edited by Rohed, 13 July 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Fire Eater]

Mark Antony, on 13 July 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

He wasn't though imo, he reflects on contacting Jon and Ghost.from the crypts

Page 959 in Bran's final ACOK chapter

"He could reach Summer whenever he wanted and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that."

Conceded.

[Rohed]

If it is only Bran from the crypts, then big oversite on martin's part?

I do remember first reading that passage, and it got me thinking how the weirwoods were key to somthing.

Doesnt Jon get kinda teleported and seen other visions aswell? Somthing along those lines.  If im right about that, Bran trying to show Jon somthing, more than just reaching.

I will argue again that it could work, heh. It wouldnt be time travel.. He goes back and kills the mad king, and the kimgdom is strong to fight the others.  Its mote like he's helping to set the story line with in the limits of the ability.

R+L=J .. R(dont remember the spelling ) read somthing and knew he had to learn to fight, many think it was because he was the PPWP or thought he was, mabie he told so he could win the ternny

[Lemiin]

Rohed, on 13 July 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

The most important factor..
Ghost COULD NOT reach summer on the other side of the wall
this means
Summer CAN NOT reach ghost on the other side of the wall.

I understand what you're trying to say and it makes sense. But since Bran DID reach Ghost when Ghost and Jon where on the other side of the Wall, then it's the proof that it's possible. I think Ghost couldn't feel Summer in DwD, because Bran is at un "unreachable" place with the Three-Eyed Crow. It's not "beyond the Wall" the problem, but just that the lair of the Children doesn't work like the rest of the world, it's magical.
But good point though, it made me think !

[Rohed]

Lemiin, on 13 July 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

I understand what you're trying to say and it makes sense. But since Bran DID reach Ghost when Ghost and Jon where on the other side of the Wall, then it's the proof that it's possible. I think Ghost couldn't feel Summer in DwD, because Bran is at un "unreachable" place with the Three-Eyed Crow. It's not "beyond the Wall" the problem, but just that the lair of the Children doesn't work like the rest of the world, it's magical.
But good point though, it made me think !

I guess I can live with that, the magic within the cave, BUT was Bran even in it at that point?

Edit. No, Jons ghost chapter is before Brans while Bran is still with CH.

Edited by Rohed, 13 July 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[OneTrueSteve]

Lemiin, on 13 July 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

I understand what you're trying to say and it makes sense. But since Bran DID reach Ghost when Ghost and Jon where on the other side of the Wall, then it's the proof that it's possible. I think Ghost couldn't feel Summer in DwD, because Bran is at un "unreachable" place with the Three-Eyed Crow. It's not "beyond the Wall" the problem, but just that the lair of the Children doesn't work like the rest of the world, it's magical.
But good point though, it made me think !

Rohed, on 13 July 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

I guess I can live with that, the magic within the cave, BUT was Bran even in it at that point?

Edit. No, Jons ghost chapter is before Brans while Bran is still with CH.

I agree that your argument about Ghost and Jon being across the Wall from Bran and Summer is a solid point.  But we have evidence from the books saying that it happened, so rather than saying that it didn't I try to look for ways in which it could.  My guess is that in the crypts, which are in the oldest part of Winterfell, are likely very near the godswood and the roots of the weirwood tree.  Perhaps by lucky circumstance (or plot needs) Bran was trying to consciously warg for the first time from a very powerful place (near the roots of the godswood of Winterfell) and got an accidental power boost.  This would help explain not only how he was able to communicate across the Wall (which we know doesn't interfere with the Weirwood Network) but perhaps also why he doesn't contact Jon again.

There is a lot of speculation here, to be sure, but to me this fits better with what I see in the text than anything else I've seen.

[Rohed]

OneTrueSteve, on 13 July 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

I agree that your argument about Ghost and Jon being across the Wall from Bran and Summer is a solid point.  But we have evidence from the books saying that it happened, so rather than saying that it didn't I try to look for ways in which it could.  My guess is that in the crypts, which are in the oldest part of Winterfell, are likely very near the godswood and the roots of the weirwood tree.  Perhaps by lucky circumstance (or plot needs) Bran was trying to consciously warg for the first time from a very powerful place (near the roots of the godswood of Winterfell) and got an accidental power boost.  This would help explain not only how he was able to communicate across the Wall (which we know doesn't interfere with the Weirwood Network) but perhaps also why he doesn't contact Jon again.

There is a lot of speculation here, to be sure, but to me this fits better with what I see in the text than anything else I've seen.

Sorry, my writing is spotty and not well thought through. I was not trying to argue that it never happend. Rather I am asking if it could just have been an oversite, given the evedincer. I agree and ment to add the point of the weirdwood. He may have accessed his greenseer ability by being close to it. I will however argue the point that Bran said it may have been a dream. This leads me to beleave he did happen to dream it at the same time he reached Jon from the future.

In Jon's chapter He warges into Ghost does he not jump around so to say? I dont have the text with me but i beleave he ended up seeing multipul places. (might have only been the jump into ghost, I dont have the text to check.)  If this is the case, it could be argued that Bran was trying to show him somthing and it was more that just contacting Jon.

Everyone said there cant be "time travel" but Bran already has, and we know he is trying to contact the past per say.

I'm not saying i'm right, and for the most part am just going on to get more evadence to accept or dismiss all theories. It would be a neat little twist, and could help to expain some things. After all many characters get warnings from the future, and Bran would simply be one cause for it. He would never be able to change much due to "the butterfly effect" and possibly only able to contact people he is bonded with.

We knw that Rhaegar "read" something and knew he would need to become a good fighter. Why? One could argue that he didn't read it but was told, and Not because He was the PTWP nor did he beleave he was. He may have been told he must win the tourny to catch Lyanna's eye and birth the fire/ice son.

***My arguements are based on assumptions and theories, and YES they are walking the crockpot line***

[Lemiin]

OneTrueSteve, on 13 July 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

I agree that your argument about Ghost and Jon being across the Wall from Bran and Summer is a solid point.  But we have evidence from the books saying that it happened, so rather than saying that it didn't I try to look for ways in which it could.  My guess is that in the crypts, which are in the oldest part of Winterfell, are likely very near the godswood and the roots of the weirwood tree.  Perhaps by lucky circumstance (or plot needs) Bran was trying to consciously warg for the first time from a very powerful place (near the roots of the godswood of Winterfell) and got an accidental power boost.  This would help explain not only how he was able to communicate across the Wall (which we know doesn't interfere with the Weirwood Network) but perhaps also why he doesn't contact Jon again.

There is a lot of speculation here, to be sure, but to me this fits better with what I see in the text than anything else I've seen.

True, Bran wasn't in the cave at that point, my bad !
But yeah, to me it's perfectly clear : Bran talked to Jon in the crypts of Winterfell, that dream happened for Jon to believe that Bran was dead. It DID NOT happen in DwD.
And I agree with you OneTrueSteve, it's more about figuring out why Jon couldn't reach out to Bran in DwD, it's NOT ABOUT proving Bran talked to Jon from the future, that's just besides the point.
If Ghost cannot feel Summer in the 5th book, it's maybe that Jon doesn't have Bran's power, or because Bran is with Coldhands, or because Bran "blocked" himself from possession, so he's unreachable. Or maybe Ghost the wolf cannot feel his siblings beyond the Wall, but Bran in the weirwood is connected to everything anywhere.

[Lord.Snow]

apart from points mentioned..

Bran embracing the Dark a major theme...

Bran in the crypts "dose not like the dark"

TEC teaches bran to embrace it...

the bran that communicated with john in Asos had already embraced it... something like "don't be frightened he said "i like the dark"

Its not time travel exactly... but mabe his little wispes here and there have been affecting the plot as early as a game of thrones.... whats a direworlf with 6 pups doing outside winterfell !

"john says" a gift from the gods.... aka the old gods aka future bran

[lostcause]

I see no time travel here. It's Bran reaching Ghost in his dreams as he states

I get that Summer and Ghost can't speak across the wall, but keep in mind that is not what we see here.

Jon/Ghost looks around for Summer, but sees the Weirwood tree. This is Bran reaching out to Jon by other means than the usual 555-WOLF. Jojen is at this time starting to teach Bran how to open his third eye, something he doesn't start to master until later on. But I think we simply see him making his first successful baby step in his dream.

Edited by lostcause, 27 July 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[ImpBeyondTheWall]

There is no communication with the past.
Only seeing.  If Bran could change the past then the whole story is controlled by him in a sort of way.
He would have been able to talk to himself in the past but we never saw that.  He may have told himself about Jaime and Cercei in the tower and he never would have fallen, that way the thre eyed crow would never have tried to find him an he would have never gotten his powers...

It would all be a crazy Paradox and nothing would make sense...

He can talk to people in the present but... There is no way he could affect the past.

[Rohed]

ImpBeyondTheWall, on 27 July 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

There is no communication with the past.
Only seeing.  If Bran could change the past then the whole story is controlled by him in a sort of way.
He would have been able to talk to himself in the past but we never saw that.  He may have told himself about Jaime and Cercei in the tower and he never would have fallen, that way the thre eyed crow would never have tried to find him an he would have never gotten his powers...

It would all be a crazy Paradox and nothing would make sense...

He can talk to people in the present but... There is no way he could affect the past.

Communicating with the past and changing it are two diffrent things. There would obviously be limitations to this power, and he could only do subtle things ie. the 6 pups, dreams, glimpses of communications.
Johns dream seems to me that Bran is trying to tell/show him something, BUT the power still lays in John not Bran on how he takes the message.

Smells of death and Bran in darkness - Yes it fits the crypts.. but as stated above Bran is learning to imbrace the darkness to use as a CLOAK! the cave is also full of death. Mels vision shows a cave being over run with skulls, prehaps the caves magic fails in time and the COTF die, attack, leave and the others enter the cave. It becomes more fitting for Brans's statment " I like the dark, no one can see you in the dark" (forget the exact quote) aswell as the statment that the most powerfull things are rooted in the darkest places. A hint towards Brans power.

"Your monter, Brandon Stark" - CH theorys aside, This stament provides evidence that Brans has more power than TEC, Bran is the"master" while TEC is HIS monster. Bran may have power than is known. TEC goes on about how they use to talk through the ravens, yet in the sample chapter Bran whispers to theon through the trees.

Jon's dream he hears a shout as quite as a whiper. Bran has been yelling through the trees trying to talk.

Bran in the crypts was just learning to warg his wolf, I find it hard to beleave he connected with the weirwood.

last important point!

Why by the old Gods and the New would Bran WANT to change the past? He is engaged in a battle of humanity, not a game of thrones. Even if he can change past events it would be pointless, and the possibility of affecting the outcome in a negative way. In turn he may not want to/ or bleave the TEC. He would only watch loved ones die in other ways. The limitation i speak of are not only power, but knoledge of what he can/should affect. This Bran would have true knowledge of this war, I beleave he knows Jon's part in it. Jon still refuses his true purpose and not untill that point was he placed into ghost. I beleave Bran was helping Jon imbrace his ability in this dream.

[Lord.Snow]

Hey whether or not you like it... It makes way more sense that the vision in johns pov was influential and powerful enough not to be from a present scared of the dark bran hiding in the crypts...Recap

John thought wowe bran was a weir wood! when he expected to see hiss brother.. a wolf

still a happy weirwood...

wow it can read my mind... Oh you like the dark... ok..

(in ACOK bran is scared of the dark and has not embraced it to that extent)

Its a mature bran talking no question about it. Makes no sense otherwise too coincidental. How would bran know to show him all that crazzy shit ?

Immediately after john finds the of horn....of jaramound.. and dragon glass daggers (both of which he gives to Sam)

And also sees the whole gathering of wild lings mammoths and giants.(greatly influencing the nights watch ranger mission)

Way way way too much plot Armour to be an over-site by martin.... he meant it be that way and he meant bran to mean it to be that way,

Without that little meeting between John and bran:

Sam would be Sam the dead, instead of sam the slayer
NO horn,
Johns party getting nabbed by thousands of wild lings. who knows, bran i guess www is like bran has already edited the entire story of the north lol

and made his own adjustments,,, its clear by WOW that Bran is somehow calling the shots.
It will become common knowledge after you read WOW first chapter,

[King Tyrion VII]

just an Other, on 12 July 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

This took place when Bran was hiding in the crypts of Winterfell. He mentions that he contacted Ghost and Jon and that he wasn't sure if it was real

It could be both.

[Isildur's Mane]

I also believe that Bran was in the crypts when he contacted Jon.

The reason why I think that Jon and ghost can't reach each other through the wall is (I believe) that neither of them are strong enough. Which is why, when ghost can sense Shaggydog and Nymeria but not Summer, the wall is in between them.

But I think it is possible for Bran to reach past the wall because he is a greenseer, he just may not have controll over it yet. He was able to reach ghost from winterfell and then the weirwood tree from beyond the wall.
And if (IMO) Bloodraven is warging Mormont's raven, then he could reach the beyond the wall too.

I'm not sure how to do spoilers yet (I'm new) so don't read this next sentence if you haven't read the Theon chapter from TWOW

Spoiler: When the ravens know Theons name. It is possible that they are being warged by either Bloodraven or Bran: End of Spoiler

So that is my take on what happened. I don't think that Bran was contacting Jon from the future. Though I'm not sure if he can do that or not - I'm not convinced either way yet. I just think at that point he didn't and that you need to be a greenseer to reach past the wall.

[Lord.Snow]

The Key here is not only that bran is a weir wood but that he is no longer afraid of the dark...

In the crypts Bran is still very much afraid of the dark...

In the dream he is no longer "i like the dark"- do a reread and it becomes obvious that the bran in the dreams has already made it past the wall and to the 3 eyed crow.

Besides- in the crypts how can bran tell jon to open his 3rd eye.