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[TWOW Spoiler] Theon Sample Chapter: Political Implications?


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#1 jdfwalpha

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 11:40 AM

By the end of the sample chapter the reader might assume that Theon will be headed to the weirwood perhaps to be executed. If that does occur and Stannis' followers and the Northmen go to witness the execution, but all of the sudden the weirwoood and/or the ravens start talking this will reinforce a belief in the Old Gods. No matter what Bran says the Northmen and R'hllor followers will have an example of the Old Gods at work. What might be the political implications there? Will the word spread to Bolton's camp causing desertions? Will Bran reveal himself? Will he speak of the Others and make Stannis alter his campaign?

Edited by jdfwalpha, 14 July 2012 - 09:47 PM.


#2 Lord Varys

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 03:58 PM

That's the really interesting question. A question that's actually far more important than who is going to fool who during the coming Battle on the Ice. The way the chapter was set up, the scheduled execution of Theon is going to happen before the battle is going to begin. In my opinion, Bran/Bloodraven have set this thing up to reveal themselves to Stannis. And they intend to do this, to win Stannis to their cause against the Others. Anything else would just make no sense since Stannis Baratheon is 1. the only pretender in Westeros who knows about the threat of the Others, 2. the only pretender in Westeros who tries to do something against the Others, 3. the only pretender with enough manpower/determination to reinforce the men of the Night's Watch (if he wins his battle against Roose).

Sure, Bran could also try to recruit Roose Bolton to his cause. He would be the other adult guy who could unify the North. But somehow I don't see him doing that (since Roose betrayed and personally killed his brother Robb), nor do I think Roose will be easily convinced to take arms up against the Others (he seems to be destined to join them eventually, considering his lack of emotions and genuinely calculating character).

I think the outcome of this revelation of Bran and/or Bloodraven is already clear. There will be a pact between Bran and Stannis, and Bran will intervene on Stannis's side during the battle (by using ravens/other animals, and trees against the Bolton forces). From Bran Stannis could also learn that Davos is alive and on his way to Rickon on Skagos, that Lord Manderly is actually on his side, and information about those speculative secret passages into Winterfell.

Only details are unclear in my opinion:

1. Is Theon going to die because Bran needs a blood sacrifice to speak/act through the weirwood tree? If so, Theon is dead. If not, Bran's revelation might very well lead to Theon being pardoned. After all, his great crime is the murder of the Stark children, not the murder of some peasant children.

2. Is Stannis going to forsake the R'hllor/Azor Ahai stuff when he strikes his deal with Bran? Bran might actually have learned enough already to know that Stannis is not Azor Ahai. If he can convince him of this fact, Stannis will still continue the fight, but he might actually feel somewhat better...

3. If there is such deal, Stannis has already won. Most if not all Northmen - even stalwart Bolton loyalists - will join Stannis if the old gods take his side during the battle. Anything else would be madness.

#3 Julian Rayne

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 04:16 PM

2. Is Stannis going to forsake the R'hllor/Azor Ahai stuff when he strikes his deal with Bran? Bran might actually have learned enough already to know that Stannis is not Azor Ahai. If he can convince him of this fact, Stannis will still continue the fight, but he might actually feel somewhat better...


I think so. He only took up with Melissandre because she had real power.

#4 Free Northman

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 04:32 AM

That's the really interesting question. A question that's actually far more important than who is going to fool who during the coming Battle on the Ice. The way the chapter was set up, the scheduled execution of Theon is going to happen before the battle is going to begin. In my opinion, Bran/Bloodraven have set this thing up to reveal themselves to Stannis. And they intend to do this, to win Stannis to their cause against the Others. Anything else would just make no sense since Stannis Baratheon is 1. the only pretender in Westeros who knows about the threat of the Others, 2. the only pretender in Westeros who tries to do something against the Others, 3. the only pretender with enough manpower/determination to reinforce the men of the Night's Watch (if he wins his battle against Roose).

Sure, Bran could also try to recruit Roose Bolton to his cause. He would be the other adult guy who could unify the North. But somehow I don't see him doing that (since Roose betrayed and personally killed his brother Robb), nor do I think Roose will be easily convinced to take arms up against the Others (he seems to be destined to join them eventually, considering his lack of emotions and genuinely calculating character).

I think the outcome of this revelation of Bran and/or Bloodraven is already clear. There will be a pact between Bran and Stannis, and Bran will intervene on Stannis's side during the battle (by using ravens/other animals, and trees against the Bolton forces). From Bran Stannis could also learn that Davos is alive and on his way to Rickon on Skagos, that Lord Manderly is actually on his side, and information about those speculative secret passages into Winterfell.

Only details are unclear in my opinion:

1. Is Theon going to die because Bran needs a blood sacrifice to speak/act through the weirwood tree? If so, Theon is dead. If not, Bran's revelation might very well lead to Theon being pardoned. After all, his great crime is the murder of the Stark children, not the murder of some peasant children.

2. Is Stannis going to forsake the R'hllor/Azor Ahai stuff when he strikes his deal with Bran? Bran might actually have learned enough already to know that Stannis is not Azor Ahai. If he can convince him of this fact, Stannis will still continue the fight, but he might actually feel somewhat better...

3. If there is such deal, Stannis has already won. Most if not all Northmen - even stalwart Bolton loyalists - will join Stannis if the old gods take his side during the battle. Anything else would be madness.


What you're forgetting is that Bran/Bloodraven have already made it clear who they support as King. Hence Bloodraven/Bran warging Mormont's raven and calling Jon "King".

They don't support Stannis. They support Jon.

#5 alienarea

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:37 AM

I have a feeling something will not go as planned if Stannis executes Theon at the weirwood.

Maybe Stannis combines the execution methods, beheads Theon at the weirwood and burns both of them after.

#6 Free Northman

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:45 AM

I have a feeling something will not go as planned if Stannis executes Theon at the weirwood.

Maybe Stannis combines the execution methods, beheads Theon at the weirwood and burns both of them after.


I think the execution may give the Northmen and Southroners a reason to split up, with the Northern clansmen wanting to see the execution in front of the Heart Tree, while the southerners don't give two hoots about it.

Thus, the Northmen are on the Island when Ramsay's forces arrive and the southerners are then wiped out by Ramsay's attack. As Ramsay's men then try to cross the ice to the island, the holes made by all the fishing on the lake causes the swiss cheese ice to give way beneath them.

Thus Ramsay retreats, thinking that Stannis's forces are defeated, but in truth the Northmen who form two thirds of his army are actually untouched on the island.

Something along those lines.

Edited by Free Northman, 15 July 2012 - 05:46 AM.


#7 Lord Varys

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:51 PM

Bran and Bloodraven might eventually reveal the truth about Jon's heritage, but this does not exactly mean that they would want him as king. Jon is - if he survives/is going to be resurrected - at the exactly right spot right now. The Iron Throne does not matter as long as the Others are trying to destroy humanity.

Bloodraven was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch once. He knows what that means. And he also knows that you cannot be a member of the NW and rule the Seven Kingdoms at the same time. After all, he was ruling Westeros once as well...

If Stannis loses his battle, all the Stark loyalists fighting on his side won't find their way to the Wall to defend the Realm. And they are desperately needed their right now. Someone has to deal with Bowen Marsh and his cabal. If a war breaks out between the Night's Watch and the wildlings, no one will be left to guard the Wall when the Others attack.

Even if Stannis, Roose and Ramsay were to die, there would be no one left to lead the Northerners, at least not in time to meet the Others at the Wall. Manderly does not and cannot speak for the whole North.

And we should also consider the possibility - at least on the long run - that Melisandre will realize her mistake concerning her vision of Bloodraven and Bran. She thinks they work with/for the enemy right now, but since it's very likely that Melisandre is going to play a huge role to resurrect/heal Jon Snow, it's quite likely that there will be some direct contact between Bran and Mel during this whole thing. Jon will be definitely contacted by Bran while living in Ghost's skin, and Bran might also reveal to them how a warg can be transferred from an animal back into his body (after said body has been healed/restored).

Borroq will tell Mel were Jon's spirit is, but no one but Mel has the means to heal/resurrect/care for Jon's body, as she is the only person at the Wall who can physically reach both Jon and Ghost...

#8 alienarea

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

Bran and Bloodraven might eventually reveal the truth about Jon's heritage, but this does not exactly mean that they would want him as king. Jon is - if he survives/is going to be resurrected - at the exactly right spot right now. The Iron Throne does not matter as long as the Others are trying to destroy humanity.

Bloodraven was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch once. He knows what that means. And he also knows that you cannot be a member of the NW and rule the Seven Kingdoms at the same time. After all, he was ruling Westeros once as well...

If Stannis loses his battle, all the Stark loyalists fighting on his side won't find their way to the Wall to defend the Realm. And they are desperately needed their right now. Someone has to deal with Bowen Marsh and his cabal. If a war breaks out between the Night's Watch and the wildlings, no one will be left to guard the Wall when the Others attack.

Even if Stannis, Roose and Ramsay were to die, there would be no one left to lead the Northerners, at least not in time to meet the Others at the Wall. Manderly does not and cannot speak for the whole North.

And we should also consider the possibility - at least on the long run - that Melisandre will realize her mistake concerning her vision of Bloodraven and Bran. She thinks they work with/for the enemy right now, but since it's very likely that Melisandre is going to play a huge role to resurrect/heal Jon Snow, it's quite likely that there will be some direct contact between Bran and Mel during this whole thing. Jon will be definitely contacted by Bran while living in Ghost's skin, and Bran might also reveal to them how a warg can be transferred from an animal back into his body (after said body has been healed/restored).

Borroq will tell Mel were Jon's spirit is, but no one but Mel has the means to heal/resurrect/care for Jon's body, as she is the only person at the Wall who can physically reach both Jon and Ghost...


With all due respect I have to disagree.

We haven't seen Melisandre resurrecting anyone. We do not know if Jon is dead or severely wounded. We know from Mance that he was healed by a wood witch when he was wounded while ranging for the Night Watch. Conveniently we have Morna Wood Witch at hand.

While Melisandre is not against Jon AFAIK, his death might serve her cause better than Jon surviving.

And maybe Jon is simply dead. Made the wrong choices, got killed. Happened to Robb as well.

#9 Lord Varys

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:31 PM

Melisandre most certainly does know as much about her faith as Thoros. Which means she should be able to perform the same ritual Thoros performed several times on Beric. Especially since that is apparently part of the R'hllorian funeral rites. Mel did not sent someone on his last journey as of yet, nor did she try to resurrect anyone.

Despite the fact that Mel is very wrong when interpreting who is Azor Ahai reborn, we should not underestimate her knowledge about magic. She is a Red Priestess and a shadowbinder. She was in Asshai. Both Thoros and Moqorro never were there, as far as we know, so Mel should be able to perform all the tricks they can along with her shadowbinder stuff (glamors and shadow babies).

Jon might not yet be dead when we leave him in ADwD but he is obviously dying. He got stabbed between the shoulder blades and in the stomach. Both wounds would be mortal in a world like Westeros. Especially with no maester at hand... And those were only the first few wounds.

#10 Associate Maester

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:26 PM

With all due respect I have to disagree.

We haven't seen Melisandre resurrecting anyone. We do not know if Jon is dead or severely wounded. We know from Mance that he was healed by a wood witch when he was wounded while ranging for the Night Watch. Conveniently we have Morna Wood Witch at hand.

While Melisandre is not against Jon AFAIK, his death might serve her cause better than Jon surviving.

And maybe Jon is simply dead. Made the wrong choices, got killed. Happened to Robb as well.


We haven't seen Mel raise anyone. However, I think it is safe to say if Thoros can do it then so can Mel. Agree or disagree with her on the AA stuff; she has shown herself to be bloody powerful. She's also gaining strength at the Wall. That said, I don't see any indication that Jon is dead. What we know for sure is he's been stabbed and sustained injuries. Or that it appears he did (that chapter is just all kind of weird to me).

#11 bemused

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:21 AM

Even better, it's Morna the Warrior Witch at hand. This..title ?.. could imply some special expertise with stab wounds and the like.

Val may not be a princess , but she obviously holds some influence among the wildlings. I've noticed in ADWD some tantalizing hints that Val and Dalla may be whatever George's version of the Norse Vala might be. In our Norse culture they were seers..maybe Mel has some hidden competition at the wall.

The assassination attempt takes place outside Val's tower and the Queen's men are greatly outnumbered between the wildlings and the NW loyal to Jon . I'm not sure Mel will be the one to take charge of the wounded Jon.

Back to Theon, I don't know how apparent BR and Bran will be able to make themselves to Stannis, but they can certainly reach Theon ..even if he starts making sense, or if they can somehow communicate through Theon, combined with the behavior of the ravens, the result could be Theon's survival and an alteration in Stannis' plans.

Stannis assumes the Northmen want Theon's head..but I think quite a few of them ( their leaders , at least ) might already know Bran and Rickon are alive , through the Liddle. They may not want his head so much as information.
If Ned's model is followed ,Theon will be invited to speak , and with Br and Bran working on him , who knows what will come out.

Edited by bemused, 16 July 2012 - 04:26 AM.


#12 TheDarkOne

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:45 AM

Whenever I read about Jon going into the body of Ghost, it just seems so ridiculous.
I've said ti before but hopefully he is either dead or only injured. Having him live inside the wolf just sounds awful.

#13 miguel sanchez

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:43 AM

Whenever I read about Jon going into the body of Ghost, it just seems so ridiculous.
I've said ti before but hopefully he is either dead or only injured. Having him live inside the wolf just sounds awful.

You're wrong on two fronts. It's not ridiculous, and it'll be awesome!

#14 Darth Rivers

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:44 AM

Maybe Stannis combines the execution methods, beheads Theon at the weirwood and burns both of them after.




Why the fuck would he do that? Most of his army follows the Old Gods.

#15 aryagonnakill

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:01 PM

You're wrong on two fronts. It's not ridiculous, and it'll be awesome!


Agreed, not only is it not ridiculous but mel saw it, I think it was mel. Not to mention why else ad the varamyr six skins prologue. In fact, id say its borderline ridiculous to think thats not whats going to happen

#16 bemused

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:08 AM

I think what Mel saw was that Jon would learn to warg properly and begin to use his ability. He will able to easily make the transition from man to wolf to man again , and not be wary of doing it.

The Varamyr prologue would suggest that once the human body dies, there's no going back . Elsewhere we learn that a ressurected person is not the same. Even in a more successful resurrection ( such as Beric ) the person is not the same , they feel they begin to lose their sense of self and are not really happy with the situation.


But I believe Jon is merely wounded , and go through a process similar to Bran's.. except he will have both Bran and BR guiding him ..making for( as we've seen ) stronger communication than BR could achieve with Bran . And Jon is an adult , with greater understanding , generally , and with more information on the nature of warging than Bran had to start with.... He also might have some expert instruction available through Borroq . So he could have a very sharp learning curve.

Edited by bemused, 17 July 2012 - 02:15 AM.