72 replies to this topic

[Two Towers]

Wild speculation ahead, consider yourself warned

• We know that Dany has no particulary strong faith. One would expect that she follows the seven, being the Faith of the Seven the Targs adopted religion, but she doesn't seem to be very devoted at all.
  
• We know that the red priests are quite the salesmen and can make a believer out of all kinds of people. They seem to have a high degree of sucess converting people that aren't particulary religious, like the BwB, Stannis men, some of NW brothers, etc.
  
• We know that Moqorro is a very capable red priest, apparently much better than Melisandre, and is going to her.
  
• We know that the High Priest Benerro has declare her to be the champion of the Lord of Light, Azor Ahai reborn.

This facts seems to indicate that the red priests are going to try to bring her to the warm Ligh of R'hllor. A few miracles/fire magic, say UnJorah for example, and Dany will start to buy the AA bs (afterall, she seems to have quite high self-esteem, and she loves her titles, so adding Azor Ahai to them will be tempting).

I would also add the story from AFFC where the black dragon head gets red with rust. I know most people use this as proof that Aegon is a blackfyre, but if it can mean that, I guess it can mean any crazy idea that fits with the black dragons a red dragons theme. So it could mean that a black dragon (Dany) will become a R'hllor follower (Red Dany). I don't put to much weight in this story, neither for Aegon nor for anything else, but since this story brought me to the idea of Red Dany I added it here.

Also since she will arrive to Westeros with a nice potpourri of things hated by Westerosi people like dragons, ironborn, dothraki, eunuchs, sellswords, and more foreign nice things, she might as well bring a foreign faith with her (Stannis will think that he was doing it before it was cool to do it)

What do you think? Will we get to see Red Dany (and UnJorah) or not?

Edit: spelling

Edited by Two Towers, 15 July 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[Lady Lea]

I think she will, because I think the Red Priests could recognise her as being Azor Ahai.

I wouldn't relate that to the dragon covered in rust, though, I think that's a clue for Aegon being fake.

[Every]

I certainly think Moqorro is going to have a good crack at converting her. I also think, of all the religions, R'hllor is the one she's likely to be the most amenable to, given her affinity for fire. Ultimately, however, I think a combination of church politics and the Red Priests' use of slaves will prevent her from becoming a believer. Her 'destiny' is the only god Dany follows.

Edit: Although like Lady Lea says, she might buy into it if they're willing to let her be the super-special prophesied one. I have a feeling she'd be keen on that idea.

Edited by Every, 14 July 2012 - 11:47 PM.

[Khal Pono]

The occasional anomaly lke Baelor the Blessed aside, the Targaryans are generally not pious people.

They worship themselves.  I don't see it happening.

[Lady Lea]

Every, on 14 July 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

Edit: Although like Lady Lea says, she might buy into it if they're willing to let her be the super-special prophesied one. I have a feeling she'd be keen on that idea.

Who wouldn't like that, right? Even Stannis falls for it.

[Sevumar]

Two Towers, on 14 July 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

We know that the High Priest Benerro has declare her to be the champion of the Lord of Light, Azor Ahai reborn.

Benerro was pouring it on pretty strongly in Dance. Even if his influence does not spread too far to the east (R'hllor doesn't seem to be that strong in Slaver's Bay), Moqorro may succeed in using her as a means of spreading the faith to her freedmen if she is proclaimed its champion. The faith of R'hllor is tremendously popular among the slaves of Volantis and seems to be developing a liberation-specific strain in light of recent events.

I don't think that Dany is going to see herself as a follower of the religion unless she somehow learns about Aemon's assumption that Azor Ahai and the more traditionally Targaryen figure of the Prince that was Promised are the same figure. Curiously, this is also the claim that Melisandre makes on Stannis's behalf.

Please, no more resurrections of the dead, even though Benerro's followers explicitly make this promise on Dany's behalf. It will be interesting to see what happens if she stops in Volantis and decides to embrace the messianic fervor that Benerro has whipped up in her name. If she has any sense, she will reject it.

Lady Lea, on 14 July 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

I think she will, because I think the Red Priests could recognise her as being Azor Ahai.

I wouldn't relate that to the dragon covered in rust, though, I think that's a clue for Aegon being fake.

I'm looking forward to a showdown or a schism in the Red Priests when multiple competing candidates for Azor Ahai are unveiled.

[Two Towers]

Sevumar, on 14 July 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

I'm looking forward to a showdown or a schism in the Red Priests when multiple competing candidates for Azor Ahai are unveiled.

So far, only Mel, at least that we know of, has been Azorahaing random people. Benerro and Moqorro seem to know what they are doing. I'm not sure any red priest would dare defy Benerro on this matter, at least not without a better sign than waking dragons from stone

Edited by Two Towers, 15 July 2012 - 12:24 AM.

[Sevumar]

Two Towers, on 15 July 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

So far, only Mel, at least that we know of, has been Azorahaing random people. Benerro and Moqorro seem to know what they are doing. I'm not sure any red priest would dare defy Benerro on this matter, at least not without a better sign than waking dragons form stone

Melisandre and Benerro are the biggest backers of specific candidates, but I wonder if the experience of the Brotherhood Without Banners in the Riverlands isn't a prelude to Thoros entering the fray too. We don't know how much power Benerro has, whether he is High Priest of Volantis, or of a larger area or how authority is divided among the Red Priests.

[Kittyhat]

It's possible, but I really don't think Dany's going to prove as easy as Stannis was.

[Jolene Brown]

Have the BWB really converted though?  I feel like Gendry is the only one we've seen who is mentioned specifically as worshiping the Lord of Light.  The rest seemed more followers of Lord Beric who made use of Thoros for Beric's resurrections and some visions than people who actually worshiped the Red God.  And now Thoros is calling himself the "pink pretender," so he doesn't even seem to believe in himself.  It's sort of ironic, actually, that the one guy we've seen do the most dramatic thing - resurrecting the dead - seem the least aggressive about his religion, and to have the fewest actual believers surrounding him.

[Apple Martini]

Kittyhat, on 15 July 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

It's possible, but I really don't think Dany's going to prove as easy as Stannis was.

You think Stannis is a true believer? I don't.

As for Dany going down the Red God path, who the hell knows. I think in the end they're all going to be proved wrong. Stannis, Dany, Aegon, Beric, whoever — if you have to say that they're the Messiah, they aren't.

[Kittyhat]

Apple Martini, on 15 July 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

You think Stannis is a true believer? I don't.

No, Stannis is worse than a true believer.  He's a whore who truly believes he's just.

In fact, maybe that's the start of a good new name for him.  He whores out his "justice" when it suits him (look at how much he respects the law when it comes to bullying the Night's Watch), whores himself out to a cult (figuratively and literally, I might add), basically will do any amount of whoring if it might get him the throne or something he wants at the moment.

You like nicknames, so I'm sure you can appreciate this: he can be Stanwhore.

Edited by Kittyhat, 15 July 2012 - 12:50 AM.

[Sevumar]

Jolene Brown, on 15 July 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

Have the BWB really converted though?  I feel like Gendry is the only one we've seen who is mentioned specifically as worshiping the Lord of Light.  The rest seemed more followers of Lord Beric who made use of Thoros for Beric's resurrections and some visions than people who actually worshiped the Red God.

I always had the sense that most of the core of the Brotherhood did follow R'hllor in some fashion. They might not be zealots, but they recognized that Thoros seemed to have a patron providing his abilities and they respect the rituals and judgments carried out by Thoros in the Lord of Light's name, even when they don't like the result (as in Sandor's trial).

Quote

And now Thoros is calling himself the "pink pretender," so he doesn't even seem to believe in himself.

Thoros's situation is different. After Beric willingly gave up his own life to reanimate Lady Stoneheart, he's having a crisis of faith. The exchange was not an equal, or worthy one in his eyes. Stoneheart is out for revenge, where Beric's primary concern was in protecting the common people who bore the brunt of the suffering brought on by the war. The mission, the good works that gave Thoros a sense of accomplishment are gone.

[Ice Turtle]

I think she may convert to the Red God, while in Westeros Aegon will gain support of the Faith.

[Lady Lea]

Jolene Brown, on 15 July 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

Have the BWB really converted though?  I feel like Gendry is the only one we've seen who is mentioned specifically as worshiping the Lord of Light.  The rest seemed more followers of Lord Beric who made use of Thoros for Beric's resurrections and some visions than people who actually worshiped the Red God.  And now Thoros is calling himself the "pink pretender," so he doesn't even seem to believe in himself.  It's sort of ironic, actually, that the one guy we've seen do the most dramatic thing - resurrecting the dead - seem the least aggressive about his religion, and to have the fewest actual believers surrounding him.

Crackpot: what if Gendry is Azor Ahai/TPTWP, eh? That'd be funny. He's the son of a king, and he knows how to forge a sword.

Just kidding.

Sevumar, on 15 July 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

Thoros's situation is different. After Beric willingly gave up his own life to reanimate Lady Stoneheart, he's having a crisis of faith. The exchange was not an equal, or worthy one in his eyes. Stoneheart is out for revenge, where Beric's primary concern was in protecting the common people who bore the brunt of the suffering brought on by the war. The mission, the good works that gave Thoros a sense of accomplishment are gone.

Yes I agree 100%. Thoros isn't very happy at the moment. He thinks Lady Stoneheart should have stayed dead - she's a creature moved by hate and revenge.

[Apple Martini]

Kittyhat, on 15 July 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

No, Stannis is worse than a true believer.  He's a whore who truly believes he's just.

In fact, maybe that's the start of a good new name for him.  He whores out his "justice" when it suits him (look at how much he respects the law when it comes to bullying the Night's Watch), whores himself out to a cult (figuratively and literally, I might add), basically will do any amount of whoring if it might get him the throne or something he wants at the moment.

You like nicknames, so I'm sure you can appreciate this: he can be Stanwhore.

I think you have some serious anger issues. Sincerely.

And Stanwhore just doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

[Kittyhat]

Apple Martini, on 15 July 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

I think you have some serious anger issues. Sincerely.

It's true.  I'm so mad right now!

Quote

And Stanwhore just doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

Now you're hurting my feelings.  Let's try taking time to get accustomed to it!

Edited by Kittyhat, 15 July 2012 - 12:53 AM.

[Two Towers]

Sevumar, on 15 July 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Melisandre and Benerro are the biggest backers of specific candidates, but I wonder if the experience of the Brotherhood Without Banners in the Riverlands isn't a prelude to Thoros entering the fray too. We don't know how much power Benerro has, whether he is High Priest of Volantis, or of a larger area or how authority is divided among the Red Priests.

This the quote from ADWD

Quote

“Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …”
“Do I have to be reborn in this same body?” asked Tyrion. The crowd was growing thicker. He could feel them pressing in around them. “Who is Benerro?”
Haldon raised an eyebrow. “High Priest of the red temple in Volantis. Flame of Truth, Light of Wisdom, First Servant of the Lord of Light, Slave of R’hllor.”

The First Servant of the Lord of Light gave me the impression that he was the 'Red Pope', but you might be right, he could be just the Red Dude in Chief of Volantis

[Angalin]

Sniping is tiresome and tends to get people banned.  I mention it as some readers might need that for future reference.

[Caelestis]

I've already said so in a few other threads, but yes, I am convinced that Daenerys will side with the Red Faith.

It's not that I think she'll become particularly religious: even Moqorro will have to do a lot more than show off a few magic tricks to convince the likes of Dany. But now that she's found her renewed belief in 'fire and blood' at the end of ADwD, I think that Dany has finally realised the sacrifices she must make in order to fight for the people she cares about. I believe Daenerys will head to Westeros (the situation with Aegon will force her to), but before that, she wants to break slavery in Essos for good.

If Dany hears from Moqorro that the Red Faith and countless slaves in Volantis believe she's a messiah and that all she needs to do to join forces with them is to declare herself Azor Ahai Reborn, she won't hesitate a second to do. Dany already has a ton of titles, adding one more to the mix won't bother her.