89 replies to this topic

[The BlackBear]

I made this primarily to point out something I view as false in the wiki. But thought that maybe it could be used by users to point out similar problems with other pages. Apologies if this is a duplicate.
http://awoiaf.wester...ex.php/Bastardy
The first paragraph: Not all bastards are baseborn, whilst this is later corrected, it should be consistant throughout.
Fathers cannot legitimise bastards, only a king may do so. Ramsay becomes a Bolton, because Tommen declares him so. Regards to Jon Snow, there is a difference between Legitimising and entering succession. eg. Daemon was legitimised, but was generally believed (made official by the victors) to not be in the line of succession.
As regards to arms, a difference I feel should be made between adding a detail (a red bar sinister) and this being a specific thing that bastards add.
I would have added this to the discussion page, but you need to be a member. I don't mean to sound too pedantic, it just niggles at me. If you spot any more/disagree with my views, don't hesitate to post.

(edited for grammar)

Edited by The BlackBear, 15 July 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[Nelida]

On the House Clegane page, http://awoiaf.wester...p/House_Clegane   I noticed it stated that Arya had stabed Sandor and left him for dead...Please forgive me if I am wrong but I do not recall her stabbing him .. in fact I thought he asked her for the 'gift of mercy" but she did not give it. Rather leaving him instead (hopefully for the wolves)  feeling he did not deserve it.  

Again if I am mistaken, my apologies. But I think it's important to note that Arya did not stab Sandor??  The Bullet point is below.  

"During the Battle of the Blackwater, Sandor flees the wildfire-covered battlefield. He eventually captures Arya Stark and tries to ransom her, but his efforts are ruined by the Red Wedding. Arya later stabs him and leaves him for dead."

[The BlackBear]

WELCOME TO THE BOARD!
Yeah that's a massive error, I wonder how many others there are...

[Werthead]

I don't understand. If you've spotted something wrong with the Wiki, why have you not changed it yourself? Wikis are collaborative efforts, and in the case of ASoIaF a lot of pages have not been updated to reflect new information, either from GRRM himself or from ADWD. If you see something wrong that you think you should be changed, then you can change it yourself.

Obviously if you're not sure about a fact, it's a good idea to discuss it here or on the Wiki page first, but where something is incontrovertibly wrong, it can be changed and updated by anyone.

Edited by Werthead, 29 July 2012 - 08:33 AM.

[Dragonfish]

The BlackBear, on 15 July 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Regards to Jon Snow, there is a difference between Legitimising and entering succession. eg. Daemon was legitimised, but was generally believed (made official by the victors) to not be in the line of succession.

Legitimizing a bastard actually does place him in the line of succession, though whether he's placed before or after his younger trueborn siblings is up for debate. Daemon had no right to the throne because he was the younger brother, so I'm not sure why you think his example demonstrates that legitimizing doesn't equal entering succession.

[The BlackBear]

Dragonfish, on 29 July 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

Legitimizing a bastard actually does place him in the line of succession, though whether he's placed before or after his younger trueborn siblings is up for debate. Daemon had no right to the throne because he was the younger brother, so I'm not sure why you think his example demonstrates that legitimizing doesn't equal entering succession.

Where does it say Daemon was younger than Daeron? All I've been able to find is that they were both born in 170, but I can't recall an exact answer to this.
My main point about succession was that they come in far down (as far as I can tell) far enough down that the exact 'rules' of succession become convoluted. I think that unless specifically stated they'd come after all'trueborn children.'

Werthead, on 29 July 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

I don't understand. If you've spotted something wrong with the Wiki, why have you not changed it yourself? Wikis are collaborative efforts, and in the case of ASoIaF a lot of pages have not been updated to reflect new information, either from GRRM himself or from ADWD. If you see something wrong that you think you should be changed, then you can change it yourself.

Obviously if you're not sure about a fact, it's a good idea to discuss it here or on the Wiki page first, but where something is incontrovertibly wrong, it can be changed and updated by anyone.

At the time of my first post, I was confused as to how you log in to the wiki.
But basically I don't feel confident in my precision of knowledge to make any changes, I just wanted to highlight things I thought were wrong. And if someone who knows the series better, wanted to make a change then they can.

[Scafloc]

The BlackBear, on 30 July 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

Where does it say Daemon was younger than Daeron? All I've been able to find is that they were both born in 170, but I can't recall an exact answer to this.
My main point about succession was that they come in far down (as far as I can tell) far enough down that the exact 'rules' of succession become convoluted. I think that unless specifically stated they'd come after all'trueborn children.'

Daemon Blackfyre was born in 170 AL. For Daeron the birthyear is unknown but for the following reasons it is very likely to be before 170 AL:

• Daeron married during the reign of his cousin Baelor (161-171)
  
• Daeron's first son Baelor Breakspear was born in 170

According to wikipedia:
Legitimation can also be used as a legal term where a father of a child born out of wedlock becomes the child's legal father. Prior to legitimation, the child is said to be illegitimate. Once a child has been legitimated, he or she is entitled to all of the benefits from that father as he or she would if that man had been married to the child's mother at the time of the child's birth. The father is responsible for providing support to the child and the child is entitled to inherit from the father.
And Catelyn complains to Robb that he ignores Sansa's claim (by thinking about legitimizing Jon). Robb reacts that she is married to Tyrion Lannister and that he does not want the Lannister to lay claim to the North. This suggests that be legitimizing Jon, Jon takes his place in the order of sucession according to the order of birth.

The BlackBear, on 30 July 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

At the time of my first post, I was confused as to how you log in to the wiki.
But basically I don't feel confident in my precision of knowledge to make any changes, I just wanted to highlight things I thought were wrong. And if someone who knows the series better, wanted to make a change then they can.

Don't be intimidated by the wiki. Most content of the wiki is just text with some links. To create a link to another article just add "[[" before the article name and "]]" after the article name.

Edited by Scafloc, 30 July 2012 - 07:18 AM.

[Dragonfish]

The BlackBear, on 30 July 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

Where does it say Daemon was younger than Daeron? All I've been able to find is that they were both born in 170, but I can't recall an exact answer to this.

Scafloc has answered this.

Quote

My main point about succession was that they come in far down (as far as I can tell) far enough down that the exact 'rules' of succession become convoluted. I think that unless specifically stated they'd come after all'trueborn children.'

As I said, it's basically up for debate where legitimized bastards go in the line of succession, even within the world of Westeros. Here is what George has had to say about it:

"Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory.

A man's eldest son was his heir. After that the next eldest son. Then the next, etc. Daughters were not considered while there was a living son, except in Dorne, where females had equal right of inheritance according to age.

After the sons, most would say that the eldest daughter is next in line. But there might be an argument from the dead man's brothers, say. Does a male sibling or a female child take precedence? Each side has a "claim."

What if there are no childen, only grandchildren and great grandchildren. Is precedence or proximity the more important principle? Do bastards have any rights? What about bastards who have been legitimized, do they go in at the end after the trueborn kids, or according to birth order? What about widows? And what about the will of the deceased? Can a lord disinherit one son, and name a younger son as heir? Or even a bastard?

There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases... but as often as not, the precedents conflicted as much as the claims."

Edited by Dragonfish, 30 July 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[JonSnow(Literally)]

hi there,
this is my first post here. I actually registered to edit the wiki, but this thread
http://asoiaf.wester...the-uneditable/
tells me I have to post 3 times before editing. so I think I just post what I wanted to edit, so you can check if this is ok.

.) there are several links missing, e.g. to Rhaenys Targaryen(daughter of Rhaegar) in the article Robert's Rebellion. I also came across some incorrect links to Rhaenys Targaryen (younger of Aegon I's sister-queens) instead of Rhaenys Targaryen(daughter of Rhaegar) but think they are corrected now. (additionally there is a missing space in the title of Rhaenys Targaryen(daughter of Rhaegar))

.) there is no mention of lord walder frey's apprearence in The Mystery Knight in Lord Walder Frey's article (altough there is one in House Frey's article)

[The Greatliott]

Hi,

In the category "cities" of the wiki, sunspear is listed as one. I thought there were only 5 in westeros.
And in the Sunspear article it's more than once refered to as a city too.
I dont know how to change it, and i may be mistaken too.

cheers.

[Lyanna Stark]

Werthead, on 29 July 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

I don't understand. If you've spotted something wrong with the Wiki, why have you not changed it yourself? Wikis are collaborative efforts, and in the case of ASoIaF a lot of pages have not been updated to reflect new information, either from GRRM himself or from ADWD. If you see something wrong that you think you should be changed, then you can change it yourself.

Not everyone has worked on a Wiki before, nor would we be sure where to start. personally I have never ever added anything to a Wiki and would, like many others, have no idea how to even log in.

Perhaps a guide for beginners would be nice? A lot of regular posters have a lot of knowledge about ASOIAF, but less about how a Wiki is updated or what good conduct on a Wiki would be. Can I just update with what I feel like? Are there guidelines? Who decides the guidelines? Is someone in charge? Where do I go with questions? What about controversial subjects? Are there standard formats regarding topics that should be used? etc etc etc.

Perhaps a Wiki FAQ?

[K.C.]

Lyanna, your login information is the same as it is on the forum. You can find some help-type stuff at http://awoiaf.wester...ommunity_Portal. I think the basic editing process is pretty easy to pick up on.

The answer to who decides guidelines and stuff is whoever feels like contributing to the wiki. Wikipedia has a byzantine web of noticeboards, committees and even sanctions to enforce rules, but on smaller wikis it's usually more free form.

ETA: I guess I should have mentioned all wikis have administrators and bureaucrats. I haven't a clue who they are on this one though.

Edited by Killer Cacti, 15 October 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Killer Cacti, on 15 October 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

Lyanna, your login information is the same as it is on the forum. You can find some help-type stuff at http://awoiaf.wester...ommunity_Portal. I think the basic editing process is pretty easy to pick up on.

Errh it looks byzantine to me. And it has no WYSIWYG editor ><

[Scafloc]

What does a "what you see is what you get editor" look like?

Like Killer Cacti has said you can find a lot of information on the community portal. Or on http://awoiaf.wester.../Help:Contents.

Edited by Scafloc, 15 October 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[K.C.]

Scafloc, on 15 October 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

What does a "what you see is what you get editor" look like?

Wikispaces and a few other places use WYSIWYG editors. It's like the normal edit box on the forum versus the code you see when you hit "toggle editing mode".

[Lyanna Stark]

Scafloc, on 15 October 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

What does a "what you see is what you get editor" look like?

A WYSIWYG editor makes it possible to avoid encoding, which is dull, prone to enabling mistakes and was awesome around 1999.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 16 October 2012 - 07:59 AM.

[Scafloc]

Except for the use of templates I am not aware of code other then bold, italic and new paragraph / heading. Btw you can select all those from the edit box.

Does wikispaces wysiwyg editor include the use of templates? That would be great.

Ps Lyanna Stark, I never knew coding was awesome ever ;-)

[mesolimbic]

Hi all,

So, I found what appears to be an error. Sorry, but I've never never edited a wiki before (created this account just to point this possible error out), and this edit seems more complicated than a standard edit because it is related to a house family tree; so the best I can do now is point it out...  

In the House Greyjoy family tree image, there is a vertical line connecting Alannys Harlaw to all the other children of Quellon Greyjoy, making is seem that she is a sibling and wife of Balon. Further, it makes is so that Theon and Asha are both the product of incest (not totally uncommon, just not the case).  This is consistent throughout all the other members of House Greyjoy.

[Scafloc]

Yes, you are right! Never noticed it myself. I have changed it. Thanks!

[niamh O'Togbui]

In the Stark family tree, Benjen is listed before Lyanna. With Bran's vision in Adwd, we now know Benjen is younger than Lyanna, or can hasard a good guess.

Would it be better to swap the two of them in the tree, or is there other information showing Benjen is older?

and this is why one needs to discuss these things: It is also implied (but not confirmed) that Brandon later bedded Ashara Dayne and got her with child.

it's not implied particularly anywhere, and whoever filled that is getting ahead of themselves. A wiki must be objective and only use facts, otherwise it's anarchy.

Edited by niamh O'Togbui, 16 December 2012 - 01:32 PM.