Wiki 'Mistakes'

[Scafloc]

Seriously??? Did you read the House Hoare article? House Hoare began to rule 4000 years ago. It also says that their conquest of the Riverlands was after they lost Bear Islands. Considering that Brandon the Burner lived before that an estimation of just 1000 years (for Brandon the Burner) ago sounds somewhat unlikely.

Also not just Rodrik is mentioned as ruling between Torrhen Stark and Brandon the Burner. There is also Edwyn the Spring King and in one version Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf.

Again there is no clear confirmation so it is possible to read a lot in it. But this does not seem the most obvious theory.

[Ran]

The conquest of the Riverlands was in the time of Harren's grandfather, Harwyn Hardhand. That wasn't much past 400 years ago, so there's certainly room for Bear Island to have been lost a century or two prior to that.

[Scafloc]

That is correct but Edwyn the Spring King and possibly Theon the Hungry Wulf are before that. And Brandon the Burner even before that. Also the way the history of House Hoare is worded seemed to me that their conquest of Bear Island (and loss of it) was not something that happened shortly ago. If you have inside information that is great; let's get this settled. My comments were only that how this was worded this did not seem to be an obvious theory.

[Ran]

Don't have any inside info on this particular topic, to be honest, but I don't really see any problem with supposing that some of the kings above were within the last 1000 years or so.

[Free Northman]

My speculation on when House Hoare took Bear Island from the Woodfootes is just that, pure speculation.

But that Rodrik Stark lived fairly recently is quite clear if you look at his position fairly close to Torhenn.

In any case, the order of the above mentioned Kings in the wiki has to be Jon Stark, Rickard Stark, Edrick Snowbeard, Brandon Ice Eyes, Brandon the Shipwright, Brandon the Burner, most likely Theon the Hungry Wolf then, and Rodrik Stark then much more recently.

Obviously with a host of Kings inbetween these named individuals. The point being though that the wiki currently has Jon Stark and Edrick Sbowbeard living AFTER Brandon the Burner, when they clearly lived long before Brandon the Shipwright.

[rmholt]

I am not exactly sure how to fix this. The Wiki redirects the reader to Valyrian Steel when Dragonsteel is sought. This seems a terrible idea. There are things known about Dragonsteel that may or may not be true of Valyrian Steel and there is no evidence that they are the same thing. So to contribute, which I ma happy to do - I can glean everything about Dragonsteel and the speculation that it is valyrian steel, or not, from the books etc, but I dont know how to fix a redirect. I also tried to post in Wikipedia once - one sentence of update - and it took a long time to get everything right. So I am willing to work on it, but the redirect is beyond me.

[rmholt]

Needle isn't Valyrian, it's straight forward steel, castle forged (means it's good) but isn't Valyrian. Dawn is forged from a meteor, it's completely unique, and similar to Valyrian steel (if a bit better in fact) but it isn't Valyrian.

It's a good sword but I have seen no evidence that it is similar to Valyrian steel or unique.

[Scafloc]

The word "dragonsteel" is only used in AFFC and ADWD in same conversation

I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

“Dragonsteel?” The term was new to Jon. “Valyrian steel?”

“That was my first thought as well.”

In ADWD the chapter were this can be found is Jon the POV in AFFC it is Sam but their conversation is the same.

So while it is not certain that Dragonsteel and Valyrian steel is the same we can say that Jon and Samwell think Dragonsteel is a different word for Valyrian steel.

[rmholt]

The word "dragonsteel" is only used in AFFC and ADWD in same conversation

In ADWD the chapter were this can be found is Jon the POV in AFFC it is Sam but their conversation is the same.

So while it is not certain that Dragonsteel and Valyrian steel is the same we can say that Jon and Samwell think Dragonsteel is a different word for Valyrian steel.

Well, exactly! There is no evidence that they are the same thing so this is misleading.

Also, there is a passage somewhere describing an ancient army 8000 years ago standing against the Others. Castle steel is no good against the Special Ice the Others use for swords but the swords that army had worked = and that steel is listed as the substance the Others could not stand against. Also, dragonglass but that seems to be a separate material. And there is no reason to think Valyrian steel is Dragonsteel. Just saying the redirection presumes a lot that isnt in the books.

[Scafloc]

There is no evidence that it is the same but there is evidence that 2 people think it may be the same.

Also there is no other info about dragonglass so this does not justify a separate page for it.

Why do you think that they are not the same?

[The BlackBear]

It's a good sword but I have seen no evidence that it is similar to Valyrian steel or unique.

If you're referring to Dawn being similar to Valyrian, there's a So Spake Martin that lists Dawn as the deciding factor between Dayne and Barristan http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/5601 so it must be very good.

Also in Jaime's chapter where he describes getting knighted, he says the sword was so sharp it cut his shoulder just resting on it.

[Free Northman]

There is no evidence that it is the same but there is evidence that 2 people think it may be the same.

Also there is no other info about dragonglass so this does not justify a separate page for it.

Why do you think that they are not the same?

The Last Hero lived before there was a Valyrian empire. Hence he wielded Dragonsteel before there was such a thing as Valyrian steel.

And the way Martin wrote that dialogue between Jon and Sam it is pretty obvious that this "first thought" is a wrong one.

When you say "that was my first thought", it usually leads towards a qualifying statement along the lines of..."but upon second thought, it turned out that I was wrong..."

[Scafloc]

The Last Hero lived before there was a Valyrian empire. Hence he wielded Dragonsteel before there was such a thing as Valyrian steel.

And the way Martin wrote that dialogue between Jon and Sam it is pretty obvious that this "first thought" is a wrong one.

When you say "that was my first thought", it usually leads towards a qualifying statement along the lines of..."but upon second thought, it turned out that I was wrong..."

I think you are confusing the metal itself with the name for it. The name "Valyrian steel" was not known the metal may have been known. Anyway if you want use it as an argument you need a reference.

The same goes for your interpretation of the Sam - Jon dialogue. In fact the two discuss the options of getting Valyrian steel. So an argument can be made that they think it is the same.

[Free Northman]

I think you are confusing the metal itself with the name for it. The name "Valyrian steel" was not known the metal may have been known. Anyway if you want use it as an argument you need a reference.

The same goes for your interpretation of the Sam - Jon dialogue. In fact the two discuss the options of getting Valyrian steel. So an argument can be made that they think it is the same.

I don't understand your post.

Jon and Sam GUESS that it is Valyrian steel, based solely on a single reference in a document scrap they've only just dug up. They have no basis for their guess other than the only steel they know about with a Dragon association being Valyrian steel. They know no more about the accuracy of their guess than any random reader would. It is not based on any knowledge on the matter, as they have no idea why the term "dragon steel" was used.

As for the reference you require? What reference do you mean? A reference supporting the fact that the Last Hero lived before the existence of the Valyrian Empire?

That is based on the official timeline given to us in the books - which has not been disproven.

The Long Night was 8000 years ago.

The Valyrian Empire arose 5000 years ago.

They probably only mastered the sorcery involved in the making of Valyrian Steel some centuries later.

In any case, the real point is that it has not been established as fact that Valyrian steel and Dragon steel is the same thing. Based on our understanding of the timeline, it is unlikely to be the same thing. Hence for the wiki to refer to it as being the same thing is at best premature and more likely, just plain wrong.

[Free Northman]

My personal view would be that the steel being referred to in the legend is not a steel used by the armies of men in general, but is instead a reference to a single unique blade, wielded only by the Last Hero. And this blade was Dawn. The rest of humanity at the time used bronze, and because bronze was ineffective against the Others, they used obsidian when necessary.

Only the Last Hero had this wondrous blade of "Dragonsteel", and that it predates Valyrian steel by many millenia.

[The BlackBear]

I subscribe to Dawn being the anti-other sword theory, or the previous sword, and that it'll either be 're-charged' or a new one'll be made. But I've always wondered how it ended up so far away from the North where the others are.

[TheButcherCrow]

I subscribe to Dawn being the anti-other sword theory, or the previous sword, and that it'll either be 're-charged' or a new one'll be made. But I've always wondered how it ended up so far away from the North where the others are.

It could have conceivably come over with Nymeria. Azor Ahai was from Asshai (in the eastern tradition anyway). Anyway, no mention what happens to him after he wins the war for dawn. Could go back east, dies. Sword makes it to the Rhoyne. Total speculation obv.

[Free Northman]

It could have conceivably come over with Nymeria. Azor Ahai was from Asshai (in the eastern tradition anyway). Anyway, no mention what happens to him after he wins the war for dawn. Could go back east, dies. Sword makes it to the Rhoyne. Total speculation obv.

Azor Ahai is not necessarily from Ashai. That's just where his legend was recorded. It could be recording the legend of some hero that lived on the opposite end of the earth, for all we know. Most likely, Ashai was simply the only civilization that had invented the art of writing at that early age, thus preserving the legend for future generations.

It is pretty obvious that the War of the Dawn was fought in Westeros, seeing as it is the only continent that connects to the land of the Others. Hence, it is more than likely that the Last Hero was also of Westerosi origin.

[TheButcherCrow]

Azor Ahai is not necessarily from Ashai. That's just where his legend was recorded. It could be recording the legend of some hero that lived on the opposite end of the earth, for all we know. Most likely, Ashai was simply the only civilization that had invented the art of writing at that early age, thus preserving the legend for future generations.

Very true. Maybe he was from the Rhoyne :drunk:

It is pretty obvious that the War of the Dawn was fought in Westeros, seeing as it is the only continent that connects to the land of the Others. Hence, it is more than likely that the Last Hero was also of Westerosi origin.

I agree it was fought in Westeros but the last hero was of the first men. They came to Westeros from somewhere, maybe some stayed there? Say on the banks of a mighty river? :drunk:

[Scafloc]

My personal view would be that the steel being referred to in the legend is not a steel used by the armies of men in general, but is instead a reference to a single unique blade, wielded only by the Last Hero. And this blade was Dawn. The rest of humanity at the time used bronze, and because bronze was ineffective against the Others, they used obsidian when necessary.

Only the Last Hero had this wondrous blade of "Dragonsteel", and that it predates Valyrian steel by many millenia.

It sounds strange to me that someone created a word for an unique item. Usually when something is unique you give it a name. If it is not unique (there are more of it) you create a word for it.

However this and also you arguments are the product of logical reasoning. It is not in books and as far as I know there is no information directly from GRRM. So the only thing we have is a conversation between Jon and Sam. What they are saying is that it may be the same. So I think the wiki should just say that. As there is no other info I do not think it is a good idea to create a separate article for dragonsteel. The redirect does not bother me as the page contains information about (the info being Sam and Jon think it may be the same). Ideally the redirect should go immediately to the paragraph containing this. That way it is immediately clear to the reader that the wiki only references to the conversation.