77 replies to this topic

[Ciazio]

Free Northman, on 18 July 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

She's probably going to kill the whole damn lot of them before leaving.

I got a cold shiver while reading this line.

I'll have a 2 month long party if you were right and I want you as my guest.

[Jayce]

Free Northman, on 18 July 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

I think people see way too many "puppetmaster strings" where there are none. Varys is not omniscient. (Only Bloodraven and Bran are.)

Yes you are probably right.

Free Northman, on 18 July 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

He didn't know where Arya was. Yoren spotted her by accident. And as we see in the TV show, Yoren is actually signalled by Eddard to pick Arya up from the statue she was clinging to to get a better view. This is different from the books, but what it does show is that there is not some masterful Varys plot being disrupted by deviating from the books slightly in this aspect. The Yoren situation was random.

Neither do we immediately see that Varys 'saved' Gendry. It still could of happened only we don;t know it yet.

Free Northman, on 18 July 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

As for the Faceless Men. They aren't manipulating Arya into staying. They have no idea about her warging abilities, or her vengeful, stubborn, determined personality.

They don't know of her abilities, and they likely aren't manipulating her, but maybe.

Free Northman, on 18 July 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

They couldn't care less if she stays or goes. They just present her with the options. This is not some psychological masterplan they're employing for her specifically.

There is a vast difference between no plan and some grand master plan, people have plans all the time and adapt them as things change, this doesn't mean there was no plan.

Free Northman, on 18 July 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

They're just following the same old practices they use with all apprentices.

Neither you nor I, nor anyone else here I would guess, know what they use with other apprentices.

Free Northman, on 18 July 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

If they went to this much trouble just to orchestrate her joining them - if their entire masterplan rode on her becoming a Faceless Man - then they took an awefully big chance by letting Jaqen leave her after Harrenhal. She probably had about 1 chance in 100 of surviving her trek through the Riverlands and getting on a ship to Braavos.

Again there is a vast difference between no plan to master plan with all manner of possibilities in between.

Free Northman, on 18 July 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

Also, they had no way of knowing that she wouldn't just get to Riverrun or the Twins (as she did) and join up with her family again. At that point in time, the Red Wedding had not happened yet, and the Faceless Men could not have planned for Arya to become and orphan after the Red Wedding.

True, but then if there is a plan (I do say if) we don't know what it is yet.

I admit that I am speculating and that there is not enough evidence to back this up fully, but neither is the meagre evidence that is presented enough to dismiss any kind of oddity here. Well maybe enough is the wrong word, the evidence that is presented hints at more. Wouldn't you agree?

[Dolorous Ali]

Jon, on 18 July 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

How can someone capture a FM? It must be practically imposible except if the FM want to be captured. But why? Obviously to kill someone. But who? It is known that to hire a FM you must pay a great price, so who would be willing to pay a great price to kill someone and who this poor "someone" is?

Not the only answer. See, Jaqen is on a kinda different journey. You might ask why staying at the Citadel and impersonating Pate and having those keys if his only goal was to kill someone there? He could have killed that someone without anyone noticing and then go home, but he had been there a long while. I think he is collecting info. I believe Jaqen had discovered the tunnels in the red keep, and was there to collect some info. And when he got his info, he got out and he might have gone to the wall to collect more info there, and then to Citadel maybe. You see, the FM are very rich, they have very able assassins, and it is hinted that they might have had a role in Valyria's doom. So, they could be after something, something very important that obviously has something to do with the Others and the dragons. Jaqen was there for that goal. You see, GRRM has dispersed the Stark children for a reason (as it's a novel). Bran has gone off to be the most powerful god. Sansa has gone to LF so we could finaly see her do sth. We normally assume that Arya's stay at the many-faced god's temple is useful for killing her enemies later. But what if besides that, she has sth to do with the FM themselves? I mean the FM could become very important in the plot (if what I believe about Jaqen is correct) and she gets to play her role there.

[StarkWhite]

Ghost of Groat, on 16 July 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

There's more than one TV detective story wherein a mark was in the joint and posing as a con was the only way to get at him.

As to who hired a FM... there are only a few individuals that we've met who could hire a FM solo.  There are any number of organizations that could hire them, however.

I do wonder if the Iron Bank hired a FM to kill Joff.

A man wonders

Don't be ridiculous. Cersei didn't stop payment until Jaqen was well out of the picture.

[King of the Road]

Well, some people think that Syrio is actually Jaqen.

However, a man thinks it's another mystery in the enigma that surrounds a man.

[StarkWhite]

King of the Road, on 18 July 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Well, some people think that Syrio is actually Jaqen.

However, a man thinks it's another mystery in the enigma that surrounds a man.

It's admittedly possible. The thought has crossed my mind.

[ForTheMarshal]

Quick point - what did Jaquen do, and more importantly mess up,  to end up in the cells, if he wasn't there by choice?

[Devala]

It's vital to realize that the Faceless Man and Jaqen H'ghar may be two different people. Jaqen H'ghar is just one of multiple faces. It seems highly likely that the man who was imprisoned in the black cells had Jaqen's face, for the jailer didn't find anything unusual about his appearance when he brought him out to give him to Yoren, and he was one of only three(/four, counting Ned) prisoners, so the jailer surely knew them all. However, as some sharp individual mentioned earlier in this thread, the Faceless Man may have killed said prisoner and taken on his appearance after that point; he may never have been in the Black Cells at all.

This would seem to fit with Rorge and Biter, as they seem unusual companions for a Faceless Man, but the original Jaqen H'ghar could've been a man much like them.

Clearly it was the same man who spoke to Arya from in Yoren's cage and who aided her in Harrenhal, so if the Faceless Man killed and replaced Jaqen, he likely did so in the Black Cells, but maybe only shortly before Jaqen was to be brought out, so it could've been with he specific intention of going along with Yoren.

But why would he do so? I don't buy the theory that it was to reach the Wall; it was an extremely slow and uncertain way of getting there at best. I think that if he deliberately went with Yoren, he did so for the specific purpose of investigating Arya's recruitment potential. I don't feel this is invalidated by the risks of her never reaching Braavos; I think he gave her a taste and a calling card, then left it to fate and her own free will.

Then he received his next mission, which took him to Oldtown.

[corbon]

ForTheMarshal, on 18 July 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Quick point - what did Jaquen do, and more importantly mess up,  to end up in the cells, if he wasn't there by choice?

Doesn't have to do or mess up anything necessarily.

Had the wrong papers at immigration?
Got caught in a tavern brawl that had nothing to do with him?
Got caught in the act on the job?
Got caught after the act on a job?
Picked the wrong face!

Any or all of the above + an escape attempt that went wrong? Especially any of the above if he picked the face of a known murderer or rapist or something similar.

For the umpteenth time, FM have some highly refined abilities and some unique skills. But they are not supermen. They have one supernatural skill that we know about, and that does nothing for them in many circumstances and maybe isn't even useable in many more circumstances.

[Summerqueen]

To be honest, we don't yet know much about the face-changing. As with most magic, there could be obscure  rules to it that we can't yet fathom.

Maybe Jaqen could only be assigned a certain number of faces, and he had to be conservative with how and when he changed them. Maybe if he had changed his face to the one he uses in front of Arya, there would be no guarantee that the guards would say "gee, my bad!" and let him go. Maybe other faces he takes must be those he kills outright, and he truly had no opportunity to kill his guards.

All we can safely determine is that he feels his debt to Arya is significant enough that he pays her back. Perhaps he also had a debt to Rorge or Biter that kept him at one of their sides, even in the cells. We simply know nothing about it.

[Ghost of Groat]

StarkWhite, on 18 July 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Don't be ridiculous. Cersei didn't stop payment until Jaqen was well out of the picture.

Don't be rediculous.  There are more than one FM.  Do you know the differece between the specific and the general?  And why be such an ass anyway?

[StarkWhite]

Ghost of Groat, on 18 July 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

Don't be rediculous.  There are more than one FM.  Do you know the differece between the specific and the general?  And why be such an ass anyway?

Ridiculous*
I didn't think I was being an ass. Why be so defensive anyway?  Yes, I know there's more than one FM. What does "know the difference between the specific and the general" mean?  I'm not sure what you're talking about there. In any case I was pointing out that it is highly unlikely the Braavosi bank would send anyone, let alone a FM to kill Joffrey for declination of payment which happens in the future. Perhaps I've completely misinterpreted your post and you'd like to elaborate a bit more?  Don't be cranky.

[romantic]

I just read in another thread that Bloodraven was held in the black cells for a few years before being sent to the Wall. Maybe Jaqen wanted to be in the black cells because he was looking for something in there. The dragon skulls are also kept somewhere under the Red Keep (I think I remember that right). He may have been looking for anything dragon or Bloodraven related under the Red Keep, and specifically in the black cells. Are the black cells the lowest level? He may have been exploring that whole level and even further down (if there is a further down?).

[salt242]

Has anyone kicked around the therory that Jaqen was in Kingslanding to kill Robert? I know Cerceis takes credit for Roberts death, but really? Her plan was to get Robert drunk and hope that the boar would do the rest. This always felt to easy for me. I mean how many of Cerceis plans ever play out that smoothly?

We know that Varys knew what the queen was planning. We also know from Varys conversation with Illyrio down in the dungeons that he's very concerned with the way things are playing out.  Neds about to figure out about Robs bastards, Loras has written his father urging him to send his sister to court, Catelyn has made off with Tyrion...  

Varys needs to take control of the situation. The easiest way is to take Robert out of mix.

Lets say the Jaqen is working for Illyrio and Varys. Perhaps they've contracted to him gain access to certain books. He makes his way across the narrow sea with Ilyrio.  Varys keeps Jaqen in the black cells (or anywhere, really)  until he can be sent to the wall.  He finds out about the queens plans, and decides to make use of the perfect opportunity.

Is it possible?

ETA: I pushed the post button far too soon.

Edited by salt242, 27 July 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[Golden Lady]

salt242, on 27 July 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Has anyone kicked around the therory that Jaqen was in Kingslanding to kill Robert? I know Cerceis takes credit for Roberts death, but really? Her plan was to get Robert drunk and hope that the boar would do the rest. This always felt to easy for me. I mean how many of Cerceis plans ever play out that smoothly?

We know that Varys knew what the queen was planning. We also know from Varys conversation with Illyrio down in the dungeons that he's very concerned with the way things are playing out.  Neds about to figure out about Robs bastards, Loras has written his father urging him to send his sister to court, Catelyn has made off with Tyrion...  

Varys needs to take control of the situation. The easiest way is to take Robert out of mix.

Lets say the Jaqen is working for Illyrio and Varys. Perhaps they've contracted to him gain access to certain books. He makes his way across the narrow sea with Ilyrio.  Varys keeps Jaqen in the black cells (or anywhere, really)  until he can be sent to the wall.  He finds out about the queens plans, and decides to make use of the perfect opportunity.

Is it possible?

ETA: I pushed the post button far too soon.

Mmm, I like it. But there's something i'm thinking.. It's kind of a question--> A faceless man can't kill someone they know. Everyone knows the king. Does that count ?

[Lion of Judah]

Not sure why he is there and I question his overall purpose. I know he is an assassin but I don't think his mission is to kill someone, if it was that person would already be dead. I am of the belief that he is looking for something, maybe he was hired to steal something but I can't figure what. I have yet to hear any theories on the subject, I don't maybe Doran Martell hired him who knows.

[salt242]

Golden Lady, on 17 August 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Mmm, I like it. But there's something i'm thinking.. It's kind of a question--> A faceless man can't kill someone they know. Everyone knows the king. Does that count ?

I'm not really sure he is a faceless man. He has obviously received some training, but that doesn't mean he finished, or he could have gone rouge. Also, there is some debate about what it means to "know a man".

When Jaqen tells Arya she can name any one in the world for her three deaths, all she has to do is know his name, she asks him if he'd kill his own father. He tells her his father was long dead but if she knew his name, and he still lived, that yes he'd kill him. One of many reasons I question if he's an actual faceless man.


We know Jaqen used a dog to kill one of Aryas three, so why not use a boar to take out Robert?

[Florina Stark]

The real question is, who is Jaqen working for if anyone? If we know that answer, we may figure out what he was doing in the black cells.