337 replies to this topic

[NomadicDirewolf]

i dont get how everyone on this forum is constantly bashing ned for being such an idiot who's obvious about his every move, but i dont get this, i cant see how people dont realise that though ned could do things differently, he doesnt because that would be dishonourable, and so its because he hung onto his honour is by far the biggest reason he lost his head. Ned Stark anticipated the disloyalty of the council. The story of Ned Stark is one where a good man is disadvantaged by his principles that he refuses t abandon

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

People complain about "plot gifts" here when they mean plot devices that are used to legitimately move things forward and all kinds of other stuff.  For every 1 opinion you agree with you'll find three you don't.  They will likely never like these characters for whatever reason, however faulty it may seem.

Just smile and keep on typing

[Winter's Knight]

I do not understand people. First, we have a thread questioning the non existent Jon-hate, now we have one questioning Ned-hate?

I don't believe we have an actual Ned-hater, apart from the Grumpkin formerly known as Ndrew. The Ned is held up as a saint in our community.

That said, I don't understand why his honour prevented him from getting his daughters out of the city before he accosted Cersei with Bob's letter.

[Ser Hippie]

Perhaps all these anti-Ned posts are really just Littlefinger reaching out through the fourth wall.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

Stupidity.  He was too caught up in everything else to realize it.  That's what happens when you try to write human like characters.  Oh and it was too important to the plot

[Ser_Patreck]

Ned is not exactly hated, but he's generally disregarded. A lot of people call him "stupid", or "too naive", or joke about his "stupid honor".

Thing is - Ned did all that he could. He arranged for the children to go back North as early as possible. He did seek out supporters, helpers, swords to have at his back, so it isn't like he went up armed with a letter only. And he had to act then - He couldn't wait, or Cersei could cement her power, dismissing people that threatened her or substituting them for her own men (Example, Barristan Selmy and Sandor Clegane). And about confronting Cersei with his suspicions, he had his motives, the first of all, he didn't want to see another mother butchered along with her children. The second, of course, was that you simply doesn't make this kind of accusation about the queen without talking to her at least for a bit first.

His only real error was trusting Littlefinger, but considering the other alternative was Varys, it's understandable. Point is, he couldn't get out of that. The situation was rigged against him since the very start. There was nothing he could've done that didn't result with his imprisonment or a bloody civil war.

So, while I don't agree with the OP about the word "hate", it is annoying to see this many people calling Ned "stupid".

Edited by Ser_Patreck, 18 July 2012 - 01:54 AM.

[Kobayashi Maru]

I can't hate Ned no mater what.It actually pains me to see other people bad mouthing him.I almost chew off my husbands head in the middle of restaurant (and this is Dubai people,not the best place for public display of emotions )just because he said Ned disappointed him for not speaking his mind about Hand's tourney. I just don't have it in me.

[Mulled Wino]

Winter, on 18 July 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

I do not understand people. First, we have a thread questioning the non existent Jon-hate, now we have one questioning Ned-hate?

I don't believe we have an actual Ned-hater, apart from the Grumpkin formerly known as Ndrew. The Ned is held up as a saint in our community.

That said, I don't understand why his honour prevented him from getting his daughters out of the city before he accosted Cersei with Bob's letter.

For some reason he was waiing for a swifter/better ship fom Braavos.  This drove me crazy.  Dude, put um on something for chrissake.

Sending his best 20 swords with Beric wasnt so smart either cuz he wanted to send 20 more with the girls, leaving himself, what 5 guards?

[Mulled Wino]

Ser_Patreck, on 18 July 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

Ned is not exactly hated, but he's generally disregarded. A lot of people call him "stupid", or "too naive", or joke about his "stupid honor".

Thing is - Ned did all that he could. He arranged for the children to go back North as early as possible. He did seek out supporters, helpers, swords to have at his back, so it isn't like he went up armed with a letter only. And he had to act then - He couldn't wait, or Cersei could cement her power, dismissing people that threatened her or substituting them for her own men (Example, Barristan Selmy and Sandor Clegane). And about confronting Cersei with his suspicions, he had his motives, the first of all, he didn't want to see another mother butchered along with her children. The second, of course, was that you simply doesn't make this kind of accusation about the queen without talking to her at least for a bit first.

His only real error was trusting Littlefinger, but considering the other alternative was Varys, it's understandable. Point is, he couldn't get out of that. The situation was rigged against him since the very start. There was nothing he could've done that didn't result with his imprisonment or a bloody civil war.

So, while I don't agree with the OP about the word "hate", it is annoying to see this many people calling Ned "stupid".

He didnt trust LF.  He should have and taken the throne.  

When Renly offered his guard, he shot that down as well.  

I dont know what to tell Ned if he didnt pick up on anything after his convo with Cersei.

Ned was a great man, but he wasn't cut out for the real world, for example, i dont picture him thriving in say a NYC, Miami, or Chicago.  He's be much better off in, say Ames.

[Ser_Patreck]

Mulled Wino, on 18 July 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

He didnt trust LF.  He should have and taken the throne.  

When Renly offered his guard, he shot that down as well.  

I dont know what to tell Ned if he didnt pick up on anything after his convo with Cersei.

Ned was a great man, but he wasn't cut out for the real world, for example, i dont picture him thriving in say a NYC, Miami, or Chicago.  He's be much better off in, say Ames.

he didn't shot down Renly's offer. He did shot down Renly's bid for Kingship. If he's going to arrest Cersei and depose her children because they're all bastards and not legitimate heirs, how would he justify handing Renly the Throne that should belong to Stannis?

Pick up on what?

And to say that Ned wasn't cut for the real world is, again, seriously downplaying the character's smarts.

[Ser Hippie]

Renly didn't make a bid for the throne in GoT (he does so in the TV show). In the book, Renly tries to convince Ned to seize Cersei and the children and rule through Joff, basically.

Ned bungled a good amount of the situation to the extent that it's somewhat hard to understand given his years of experience essentially ruling the North.

[Ser_Patreck]

Ser Hippie, on 18 July 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

Renly didn't make a bid for the throne in GoT (he does so in the TV show). In the book, Renly tries to convince Ned to seize Cersei and the children and rule through Joff, basically.

Ned bungled a good amount of the situation to the extent that it's somewhat hard to understand given his years of experience essentially ruling the North.

I mixed it up, it seems. But the end result is still the same - Joffrey would eventually be an adult, taking all of Ned's power from him. And how could he justify displacing Joffrey after ruling through him? And Renly could've stand by Eddard's side even then- He didn't, because proving Cersei's treasonwould mean the throne would go to Stannis.

We have the benefit of hindsight, and of seeing most of the action from other POVs as well, and of lacking some of Eddard's taboos, so it's hard to call him stupid. But the situation was rigged against him, and he did try his best.

Edited by Ser_Patreck, 18 July 2012 - 02:15 AM.

[Ser Hippie]

Ser_Patreck, on 18 July 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

But the end result is still the same - Joffrey would eventually be an adult, taking all of Ned's power from him.

The point wasn't simply to outmaneuver Cersei in the short run, it was also to put 'better' people (i.e. Renly and Ned) in a position to decide what would happen. It would also give Ned the chance to make his case against Cersei/Joffrey rather than force him into precipitate action.

Quote

And how could he justify displacing Joffrey after ruling through him? And Renly could've stand by Eddard's side even then- He didn't, because proving Cersei's treasonwould mean the throne would go to Stannis.

Who says Ned has to go along with Joffrey ruling as Robert's heir? With Ned (and Renly/anti-Lannister nobles) in control of the capital, he can present his case of Cersei's treason and reveal the truth. Turning Renly down does nothing but deprive him of reliable swords.

Quote

We have the benefit of hindsight, and of seeing most of the action from other POVs as well, and of lacking some of Eddard's taboos, so it's hard to call him stupid. But the situation was rigged against him, and he did try his best.

Maybe to some extent. A lot of what he did was pretty obviously poorly thought out though (particularly things like confronting Cersei directly and in private without arranging for further support, turning away offers of help, relying solely on LF bribing the Gold Cloaks, dispersing his men on various tasks, etc.), and like I mentioned in my previous post, it doesn't really jive with "Ned the capable Warden of the North" - yes, things are different in KL, but some of what he does is so grossly incompetent.

[Mulled Wino]

Ser_Patreck, on 18 July 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

he didn't shot down Renly's offer. He did shot down Renly's bid for Kingship. If he's going to arrest Cersei and depose her children because they're all bastards and not legitimate heirs, how would he justify handing Renly the Throne that should belong to Stannis?

Pick up on what?

And to say that Ned wasn't cut for the real world is, again, seriously downplaying the character's smarts.

This is exactly my point.  Renly wasnt making a bid for kingship.  He was telling ned how to gain control.  Ned was completely inflexible with his plans,
Renly made a great point, you control the boy king, you control the throne.  Leave the king to the Lannisters, they control the throne.  He has no plwer except a parchment.

As far as the "what" that he didnt pick up on, i think that's more than clear.  He didnt pick up on the signals that cersei was going all the way and would do anything to stay in power and protect her children (even give ned's thigh a quick rubdown).  

Ned tells her to leave town and she says "when you play the games of thrones you win or die", and "what about my wroth?".

Ned makes no attempt to figure out or thwart her plans, or even anticipate her moves.  All he does is think that the lannisters will fight back.

I stand by my other statement, Ned isnt built for dealing with people who value power over honor.

[Mulled Wino]

LF even tells Ned how to gain control, but Ned refuses to act until king Robert is dead.  He wont do anything except shoot down LF's proposal, then beg him for the City Watch.

Not tactically sound, at all.

[Stark@heart]

Poor Ned.   He had no business going south and he knew it but he gave his word and was honor bound to follow through.

As far as sending his children home before he confronted Cersei -  That would have been the better option but really, after what happened between Arya and Joffrey- Arya atleast should have been sent back to Winterfell but that would have eliminated alot of cool plot developments, right?  

So, sometimes a good man does foolish things for the right reasons and it doesn't work out or works against him.  That's how it works in the real world and I think that's part of what freaked me and so many others out about his death.  In Fantasy, the Hero/Good Guys always prevail, especially if they have the power of the Old Gods and Direwolves with them.  I / We got fooled into thinking we knew how this story goes.   Then Bam! Off came Ned's head and I wanted to cry. ( Actually I did, alot)

Then, GRRM got me again with Robb.     He shares many of Ned's finer traits and I think they led him to make the same kind of mistakes and to the same bitter end.

[Ser_Patreck]

Ser Hippie, on 18 July 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

The point wasn't simply to outmaneuver Cersei in the short run, it was also to put 'better' people (i.e. Renly and Ned) in a position to decide what would happen. It would also give Ned the chance to make his case against Cersei/Joffrey rather than force him into precipitate action.

It simply doesn't work this way. The heir is either Joffrey or Stannis. Denouncing Joffrey as illegitimate, then casually skipping Stannis, would be hypocrisy. Either way, declaring for Renly is sure to start a civil war.

Ser Hippie, on 18 July 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

Who says Ned has to go along with Joffrey ruling as Robert's heir? With Ned (and Renly/anti-Lannister nobles) in control of the capital, he can present his case of Cersei's treason and reveal the truth. Turning Renly down does nothing but deprive him of reliable swords.

No one. And he didn't intend to. He intend to depose Cersei and Joffrey. He turned Renly down over this idea, he didn't say "I don't want your swords". It was Renly who ran because he knew Ned's plans would deprive him of the Throne.

Ser Hippie, on 18 July 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

Maybe to some extent. A lot of what he did was pretty obviously poorly thought out though (particularly things like confronting Cersei directly and in private without arranging for further support, turning away offers of help, relying solely on LF bribing the Gold Cloaks, dispersing his men on various tasks, etc.), and like I mentioned in my previous post, it doesn't really jive with "Ned the capable Warden of the North" - yes, things are different in KL, but some of what he does is so grossly incompetent.

He confronted Cersei because he intended to save her. Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon, remember? And he turned down the offer for a coup, not help.

Mulled Wino, on 18 July 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

This is exactly my point.  Renly wasnt making a bid for kingship.  He was telling ned how to gain control.  Ned was completely inflexible with his plans,
Renly made a great point, you control the boy king, you control the throne.  Leave the king to the Lannisters, they control the throne.  He has no plwer except a parchment.

And what do you do when the boy King is not a boy anymore? And the parchment was the King's will. A modern contract is just a piece of paper in the same extent Ned had only a piece of parchment.

Mulled Wino, on 18 July 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

As far as the "what" that he didnt pick up on, i think that's more than clear.  He didnt pick up on the signals that cersei was going all the way and would do anything to stay in power and protect her children (even give ned's thigh a quick rubdown).

He did. He took pains to take the girls from King's Landing and to have the Goldcloaks support.

Mulled Wino, on 18 July 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

Ned tells her to leave town and she says "when you play the games of thrones you win or die", and "what about my wroth?".

Ned makes no attempt to figure out or thwart her plans, or even anticipate her moves.  All he does is think that the lannisters will fight back.

Her plans can be resumed to trusting the Lannister guard in KL

Mulled Wino, on 18 July 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

I stand by my other statement, Ned isnt built for dealing with people who value power over honor.

Yes, because Boltons, and Aerys and Mountain Clans...

Ned is no invincible superman that can turn over the circumstances, true.

[Ser_Patreck]

Most of all, I'm really unsettled by how many people actually condemn the man for having morals.

[Mulled Wino]

First off, again, he was never asked to declare for Renly.

[Mulled Wino]

Ned had no attorneys, nor copy machines, much different from today's contract.

Ned needed to act fast, not concern himself with what would happen in 4 years when Joff was old enough to rule- he would have a ton of options.  The conversation with Cersei should have given him a hint as to the gravity of the situation.

He "took pains" to get the girls out, but it took him days and days to do it.

As far as Cersei's only plan being to get the City watch, that was a lot more effective than Ned's.  But she had more going on than that, she had the backing of the small council.

Ned wakes up the next day and Renly is gone.  Not a good sign.