80 replies to this topic

[BondJamesBond]

I won't rehash the evidence except to say 1) Aerys liked Joanna, 2) Aerys was power hungry and entitled, 3) Tywin and Aerys fell out to the point that Tywin killed off Aerys' family after being his hand, 4) Jaime and Cersei as lovers, 5) only targs have a history of siblings marrying, 6) Cersei is crazy like Aerys, 7) Jaime is not like Tywin at all whereas Tyrion is just like him, 8) Gemma Lannister (?) had some snarky comment about Tyrion being tywins true son, and 9) King Joffrey was as crazy as Aerys ( though that can also be attributed to shitty parenting), 10) Cersei has always innately viewed Tyrion as an outsider.

I think the theory about J and C being targs makes perfect sense because it would be deeply ironic if the one true son of Tywin is the one he rejected in favor of Aerys' kids.  

Additionally, there is irony in the fact that the so called illegitimate king Joffrey and king tommen are actually the descendants of Aerys even if not his legitimate children.  

Imagine the awkwardness when Jon Snow is revealed to be Jaime and Cersei's nephew.  What do they do at that point?  If Jon is leader of the north and the Lannisters are in trouble, does he help them out or at least remain neutral?  

I think there is way too much irony and potential for great plot twists should J and C be targs.  It would completely be in keeping with the rich tradition GRRM has started with the first five books.

[The Summer Islander]

Right. I posted something like this on a thread about Tyrion being a Targ. He's so not. Plus one of my reasons why I dont mind there being "secret Targaryens".

Edited by The Summer Islander, 19 July 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[Aeneys]

Then why do these lovable incestuous twins look 100% Lannister? Their children also have Lannister coloring. Genetics in ASOIAF tend to be over-simplified. And I thought the Targaryen look was dominant.
Having said that, I don't mind them being Targaryens. They can take Cersei. Please!

[Jem]

I do love the irony of Jaime and Cersei really being Aerys's children, however most of the irony, as I understand it, comes from Tywin's two beautiful children not actually being his and with him already dead, I just don't see it packing that much of a punch any more.

[The Summer Islander]

The Summer Islander, on 16 July 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

I think that as far as Tywin goes he hates Tyrion because, Tyrion is a dwarf, grotesque, a drunkard, a whore, ect. But he's very intelligent like Tywin, and he KNOWS for that fact that Tyrion is indeed his son. I'm not saying that Jaime and Cersei are stupid, but they are far from Tyrions IQ. With that being said, I feel that during the time Tyrion was conceived, Johanna and Aerys had no contact and they didn't have the oppourtunities for any kind of relations to take place.

(I am working under the theory that A+J happened once or twice by force and became pregnant). Therefore Jamie and Cersei are Aerys children (yep I'm one of those peope). I also don't think that Tywin would suffer through his wife cheating on him willingly and becoming pregnant and not getting rid of it. Tywin is no fool. But we are all fools for something or someone at some point in life and if Tywin ever were a fool it was for Johanna. Why would Tywin think that Jamie and Cersei are not his? Well I think he may have know about the rape, but was unwilling to take action against Aerys because, well  he was THE king and no one wants to be a kin or kingslayer (later his "son" did what he may have wished he could have, but ultimately could not). Also the twins are super beautiful. Uncommonly beautiful. Lannisters are not super and uncommonly beautiful. Both Johanna and Tywin are both Lannisters. They may be cute, nice looking, or even attractive but we know they don't possess the beauty that the twins do. But we do know that Tarygaryens are super and uncommonly beautiful (you could argue that a lot of other familes are super and uncommonly beautiful like the Daynes and Valeryonssp?,  but we are not talking about other families we are talking about TARGARYENS and LANNISTERS). Obviously I think Aerys wanted Johanna or he would not have raped her, but I don't think he coveted her out of some other ill born jealousy of Tywin as we are lead to believe.  I think Tywin was indeed jealous of Aerys because of the beautiful children that he produced with the love of Tywins life. Look at what came from him and Johanna compared to what was produced by Aerys and Johanna. Tywin being the pround man that he is would never, ever admitt that such beautitul, promising children were not his. So of course took a great liking for them because eveyone marvled about them, and thought they were his.
I think is why he chose to give Tyrion a name starting with Ty. It is possible that Johanna pick the twins names, but why would Tywin let her name "his" son something other than a more family sounding name? I think he has always had doubts about the twins, but never Tyrion.

But basically it would be ever sooo sweet if the two children he were most proud of and praded around were not his, and the one he hated was.

Edited by The Summer Islander, 19 July 2012 - 12:32 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

Incest is not hereditary.

[Aeneys]

Winter, on 19 July 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Incest is not hereditary.

Ditto. And incest and madness are not mutually exclusive.

[Jem]

Winter, on 19 July 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Incest is not hereditary.

It is if it is parent/child incest! Bom-tish!

Incest: A game for all the family

[Sterling]

The Summer Islander, on 19 July 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

How can you assume that Joanna was raped by Aerys a few times? I'm probably forgetting stuff but I hadn't put two and two together to make that conclusion yet.

Also I'm wondering what the significance of this would be regarding prophecies, and the rest of the story.

[Lord Hound]

Hodor has more chance of being a Targ than those 2.

[BondJamesBond]

I think summer islander has nailed it.  I'm really surprised that A + J = J and C is not commonly accepted fact at this point.  

With Tywin dead, if the truth came out then it would free up Jaime and Cersie to live the lives they wanted in KL and for Tyrion to inherit the Rock (that is, if he can get a pardon for kinslaying).

I think there's a very powerful narrative for the truth setting the Lannisters free.

[The Summer Islander]

Sterling, on 19 July 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

How can you assume that Joanna was raped by Aerys a few times? I'm probably forgetting stuff but I hadn't put two and two together to make that conclusion yet.

Also I'm wondering what the significance of this would be regarding prophecies, and the rest of the story.

Well I'm not 100% sure. (I am working under the theory that A+J happened once or twice by force). As far as prophecy goes I don't think it has anything to do with a prophecy. I think it's just the irony of the situation, if it is true. It's just something I think about. It may not occur to everyone else or make sense to others but I willing to share my ideas to find like minded people who might have thought the same but really didn't want to voice it.

[Cliche Guevara]

Not to mention the awesome twist it would give the Jaime/Tyrion relationship with both of them having hated and eventually killed their fathers.

[BondJamesBond]

Cliche Guevara, on 19 July 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

Not to mention the awesome twist it would give the Jaime/Tyrion relationship with both of them having hated and eventually killed their fathers.

Boom, a la ari gold.

[The Summer Islander]

Cliche Guevara, on 19 July 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

Not to mention the awesome twist it would give the Jaime/Tyrion relationship with both of them having hated and eventually killed their fathers.

Yes this too. I think it would make for a great read. If there was a way to prove they were Aerys kids and if it is true.

[BondJamesBond]

Aeneys, on 19 July 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

And I thought the Targaryen look was dominant.

Robert Baratheon, black of hair, was a partial targ.

[Apple Martini]

Aeneys, on 19 July 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Then why do these lovable incestuous twins look 100% Lannister? Their children also have Lannister coloring. Genetics in ASOIAF tend to be over-simplified. And I thought the Targaryen look was dominant.

Jon looks like a Stark, and Rhaenys and Baelor Breakspear looked Dornish. And Rhaelle Targaryen helped produce the very Baratheon-looking Baratheons we have now.

Edited by Apple Martini, 19 July 2012 - 12:32 AM.

[The Summer Islander]

Apple Martini, on 19 July 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

Jon looks like a Stark, and Rhaenys and Baelor Breakspear looked Dornish. And Rhaelle Targaryen helped produce the very Baratheon-looking Baratheons we have now.

Thank You! I have red/brown hair and neither of my parents do. But my mothers mom did. The Lannisters have blonde hair so do the Targaryen. Not all Targaryen hair is silver/blonde though. And if the twins are the children of Aerys you have to take into consideration the coloring of Aerys' mother. She may have had the same coloring of a Lannister.

Edited by The Summer Islander, 19 July 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[Aeneys]

Apple Martini, on 19 July 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

Jon looks like a Stark, and Rhaenys and Baelor Breakspear looked Dornish. And Rhaelle Targaryen helped produce the very Baratheon-looking Baratheons we have now.

Of course there are exeptions. But why are Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen all Lannister-looking? There is always a possibility, but it seems highly unlikely. If Jaime and Cersei are Targs, it would be very interesting, but I don't think GRRM has set it up that way. I think the reference to Aerys and Joanna are meant to be a read herring.

Ah. Are we assumening Jon is a Targaryen now? jk

[Apple Martini]

Aeneys, on 19 July 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

Of course there are exeptions. But why are Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen all Lannister-looking? There is always a possibility, but it seems highly unlikely. If Jaime and Cersei are Targs, it would be very interesting, but I don't think GRRM has set it up that way. I think the reference to Aerys and Joanna are meant to be a read herring.

Because they have two Lannister parents? I don't understand the question. If, hypothetically, Aerys and Joanna could produce two Lannister-looking kids, why couldn't Cersei and Jaime produce three Lannister-looking kids?

Why do four of Ned's kids look like Tullys?

Quote

Ah. Are we assumening Jon is a Targaryen now? jk

Cute.