80 replies to this topic

[Dr. Pepper]

Winter, on 19 July 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Incest is not hereditary.

Amen.  I have seen several mentions of this odd idea that incest is a gene that gets passed on in the same way hair or eye color gets passed on.  I mean, why would people even think this?

[Aeneys]

Apple Martini, on 19 July 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

Why do four of Ned's kids look like Tullys?

That's my point. None of Cersei's kids bare any resemblace at all to Targaryens. For example, if Tommen had violet eyes, or something like that.

I just don't think there's enough evidence. That's all.

[Apple Martini]

Aeneys, on 19 July 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

That's my point. None of Cersei's kids bare any resemblace at all to Targaryens. For example, if Tommen had violet eyes, or something like that.

I just don't think there's enough evidence. That's all.

The point is, it's difficult to guess why some house's traits are expressed dominantly and some aren't. For all you or I know, the Lannister traits are dominant against the Targ traits the way the Tully traits seem to be dominant against the Stark traits.

Dr. Pepper, on 19 July 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Amen.  I have seen several mentions of this odd idea that incest is a gene that gets passed on in the same way hair or eye color gets passed on.  I mean, why would people even think this?

I think that IF this is true, the incest is a thematic clue, not a genetic one, if that makes sense. Just like I'm not sure pyromania is genetic, but Cersei's arousal when the Tower of the Hand burned could be used as thematic evidence.

Edited by Apple Martini, 19 July 2012 - 01:02 AM.

[Aeneys]

Apple Martini, on 19 July 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

The point is, it's difficult to guess why some house's traits are expressed dominantly and some aren't. For all you or I know, the Lannister traits are dominant against the Targ traits the way the Tully traits seem to be dominant against the Stark traits.

I only brought this up in the first place for two reasons.

• I thought it was implied in the books that Targaryen looks are dominant, just like say, Baratheon looks.
  
• If this doesn’t matter at all, then what was the point of Ned finding out Joffrey was not a Baratheon because he didn’t have black hair?

Are there exceptions? Sure. But GRRM seems to use physical traits in such matter from time to time.

[Jolene Brown]

This is one thing that would make me considering quitting the books.  I would be so pissed.

[Apple Martini]

Aeneys, on 19 July 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

I only brought this up in the first place for two reasons.

• I thought it was implied in the books that Targaryen looks are dominant, just like say, Baratheon looks.
  
• If this doesn’t matter at all, then what was the point of Ned finding out Joffrey was not a Baratheon because he didn’t have black hair?

Are there exceptions? Sure. But GRRM seems to use physical traits in such matter from time to time.

1. The Targaryen traits have been largely passed down due to inbreeding. So yeah, their physical traits will be passed on. But we have multiple instances, when Targs produced outside of their family, of the Targ looks faltering: Baelor Breakspear, Bittersteel, Rhaenys, Jon, etc. And even if the Targ looks overcame, say, an Arryn or Hightower union, it doesn't automatically follow that they'd be dominant over a Lannister. In genetics, the traits of offspring are also independent in between cases. Meaning, I can have seven boys in a row, but on my eighth try, I still have an equal chance of having a boy as having a girl. I'm not "due" a girl, any more than I "always" have boys. In the same way, Cersei and Jaime, if they are Targs, could very easily have still produced three Lannister-looking kids.

2. The Baratheons seem to be one of the houses whose physical traits are ironclad, 100%, locked-up dominant. But that has no bearing, from what I can tell, on other houses and their traits. I wouldn't use this as evidence if I were you, because the Baratheons are clearly a "unique" case.

Edited by Apple Martini, 19 July 2012 - 01:20 AM.

[Aeneys]

Apple Martini, on 19 July 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

1. The Targaryen traits have been largely passed down due to inbreeding. So yeah, their physical traits will be passed on. But we have multiple instances, when Targs produced outside of their family, of the Targ looks faltering: Baelor Breakspear, Bittersteel, Rhaenys, Jon, etc. And even if the Targ looks overcame, say, an Arryn or Hightower union, it doesn't automatically follow that they'd be dominant over a Lannister. In genetics, the traits of offspring are also independent in between cases. Meaning, I can have seven boys in a row, but on my eighth try, I still have an equal chance of having a boy as having a girl. I'm not "due" a girl, any more than I "always" have boys. In the same way, Cersei and Jaime, if they are Targs, could very easily have still produced three Lannister-looking kids.

2. The Baratheons seem to be one of the houses whose physical traits are ironclad, 100%, locked-up dominant. But that has no bearing, from what I can tell, on other houses and their traits. I wouldn't use this as evidence if I were you, because the Baratheons are clearly a "unique" case.

LOL.

I get what you're saying. I know how genetics work in the real world. But in the books, it's different. I am not trying to use it as evidence, as much as I was asking a genuine question. Although now I find it hard to believe that Baratheons are the only exception.

[Apple Martini]

Aeneys, on 19 July 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

LOL.

I get what you're saying. I know how genetics work in the real world. But in the books, it's different. I am not trying to use it as evidence, as much as I was asking a genuine question. Although now I find it hard to believe that Baratheons are the only exception.

And in the books, we know that Targ traits are passed through inbreeding and that outbreeding can result in non-Targ-looking offspring, so I still don't get what is so difficult to accept about the possibility of Cersei and Jaime producing Lannister-looking children, even if they're half-Targ.

Edited by Apple Martini, 19 July 2012 - 01:29 AM.

[Aeneys]

I stand by my comment that some Targaryen traits should be present, if not on Cersei and Jaime, in one of their kids at least. I'm not saying they should all look like Aerys or anything like that. That would be too suspicious.

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

jumping in here.  I'm not really sure where I fall on the A + J = C and J theory but I would add a thought I've had for awhile --

If it is true that Cersei and Jaime are Aerys' children, that might be another reason why Tywin was so sure that Aerys would betroth Rhaegar to Cersei.  The "sister-wives" tradition would continue if they would have married.

It is presumed that Rhaegar married Elia because there was no sister for him to marry.  I think in one of the books that Dany has some thought about being born too late to have been Rhaegar's wife.

But if Cersei was Aerys' childand Aerys and Tywin knew it, then it could explain why Tywin (and consequently Cersei) would be so certain of a betrothal.

...just throwing some fuel on the fire.


edit:

Aeneys, on 19 July 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

I stand by my comment that some Targaryen traits should be present, if not on Cersei and Jaime, in one of their kids at least. I'm not saying they should all look like Aerys or anything like that. That would be too suspicious.

some Targaryen traits are present.  Cersei is bat**** crazy and Joffrey is cruel and sadistic.  

and this:

Apple Martini, on 19 July 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

I think that IF this is true, the incest is a thematic clue, not a genetic one, if that makes sense. Just like I'm not sure pyromania is genetic, but Cersei's arousal when the Tower of the Hand burned could be used as thematic evidence.

Edited by A Song of Hound and Wolves, 19 July 2012 - 01:39 AM.

[Apple Martini]

Aeneys, on 19 July 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

I stand by my comment that some Targaryen traits should be present, if not on Cersei and Jaime, in one of their kids at least.

Why though?

[The Summer Islander]

What traits besides purple eyes should be present?

[BondJamesBond]

Aeneys, on 19 July 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

I stand by my comment that some Targaryen traits should be present, if not on Cersei and Jaime, in one of their kids at least. I'm not saying they should all look like Aerys or anything like that. That would be too suspicious.

Maybe tommen looks just like Aegon the conqueror did at eight minus the hair and eye color, but no one knows because no one was alive when Aegon was 8 years old.

[Aeneys]

BondJamesBond, on 19 July 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

Maybe tommen looks just like Aegon the conqueror did at eight minus the hair and eye color, but no one knows because no one was alive when Aegon was 8 years old.

Haha. Maybe, for all we know.

I think George is very careful when he describes characters physically. Sometimes a trait (eye color, hair color, features) are described in a way for the reader to make a connection between a character and another. I believe it is in George’s literary style to plant some evidence through physicality, something for a smart reader to pick up on, but not too obvious. I think it is out of George’s style to overlook this.

[Free Northman]

Cliche Guevara, on 19 July 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

Not to mention the awesome twist it would give the Jaime/Tyrion relationship with both of them having hated and eventually killed their fathers.

No, the irony is that each of them actually killed the other one's father. Hence, neither Jaime nor Tyrion are truly Kinslayers.

Tyrion is almost certainly a Targ bastard, in my view. Jaime and Cersei? Not a chance.

Edited by Free Northman, 19 July 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[Cliche Guevara]

Free Northman, on 19 July 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

No, the irony is that each of them actually killed the other one's father. Hence, neither Jaime nor Tyrion are truly Kinslayers.

Tyrion is almost certainly a Targ bastard, in my view. Jaime and Cersei? Not a chance.

I think there's way more evidence in the book for Jaime and Cersei than there is for Tyrion, the time period of the only known (quasi-)sexual encounter between aerys and joanna being the most obvious.

[The Summer Islander]

I would just love for Tyrion to be Tywin's only child and to gain Casterly Rock. Just for the simple fact that Tywin didn't want him to have it. Also because Cersei feels she should have it. I want her to be the Queen of ash and dirt. Lady of rot and garbage. She deserves no happiness.

[Aeneys]

The Summer Islander, on 19 July 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

I would just love for Tyrion to be Tywin's only child and to gain Casterly Rock. Just for the simple fact that Tywin didn't want him to have it. Also because Cersei feels she should have it. I want her to be the Queen of ash and dirt. Lady of rot and garbage. She deserves no happiness.

Wow. No love for Cersei. I hear ya

[Free Northman]

Cliche Guevara, on 19 July 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

I think there's way more evidence in the book for Jaime and Cersei than there is for Tyrion, the time period of the only known (quasi-)sexual encounter between aerys and joanna being the most obvious.

But from a plot perspective there is far more reason for Tyrion to be the Targ.

"For a moment Tyrion cast a shadow tall as a king." Jon's chapter in GoT.

He has pale blond hair, instead of the Lannister gold.

Tywin even expressed direct doubts as to whether he was truly his son. Why would he do that, besmirching the honor of the wife he loved so dearly, unless she had no choice in the matter. And who could possibly force himself onto the wife of a High Lord, except the King?

Furthermore, Tyrion is the one associated with Dragons, with Dragon dreams and an irresistable attraction to them. Come on, he is at the point of actually getting a dragon of his own in Meereen. Jaime and Cersei have no plot reason to ever be in that situation.

Let's face it, Tyrion's been set up for this, whereas the Lannister twins have not.

Edited by Free Northman, 19 July 2012 - 02:13 AM.

[Cliche Guevara]

Aeneys, on 19 July 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

Haha. Maybe, for all we know.

I think George is very careful when he describes characters physically. Sometimes a trait (eye color, hair color, features) are described in a way for the reader to make a connection between a character and another. I believe it is in George’s literary style to plant some evidence through physicality, something for a smart reader to pick up on, but not too obvious. I think it is out of George’s style to overlook this.

He didn't overlook it. If he had given one of the kids targ features it would have been a dead giveaway that the aerys/Joanna rumors were true. This is Obviously something that isn't meant to be revealed until later in the series if it's true so he couldn't make it obvious by giving them the trademark targ physical features. Instead he gave cersei and joff some of the mental/emotional characteristics of aerys himself to make it more subtle.

Edited by Cliche Guevara, 19 July 2012 - 02:19 AM.