287 replies to this topic

[Rhaquentis]

I'll be joining the Roose boat, adding that his and Ramsay's maesters were in it all together, just because there was a whole discussion about how deceitful maesters can be in the same book (according to Barbrey Ryswell).

[aryagonnakill]

Just want to point out, completely separate of any other post that the t.v. show make it almost seem that the death of lady brought bran back season 1 episode 3. My theories of ghost having to die for Jon to live and shaggydog going to lady after Rickon dies may be reinforced by this.
Edited to say t.v. show instead of movie.

Edited by aryagonnakill, 23 September 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[anonymouseuser]

John Reynolds, on 19 July 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Just because that scene was filmed for the HBO show doesn't make it canon.  I've always been conflicted on that topic because it seems so out of character for Stannis (despite his obviously unhappy marriage).

I think this is another example of us judging the social norms of ASoIaF with our own.  It doesn't matter that Stannis's marriage isn't happy.  It doesn't have to be.  It's a marriage of convenience.  If Stannis wanted a bit on the side he could easily have it as so many others do.  He just doesn't seem the type - or maybe he isn't that interested anyway.  One 2randy" brothe, one "gay" brother and one with better things on his mind!

[Carey Snow]

anonymouseuser, on 25 September 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

I think this is another example of us judging the social norms of ASoIaF with our own.  It doesn't matter that Stannis's marriage isn't happy.  It doesn't have to be.  It's a marriage of convenience.  If Stannis wanted a bit on the side he could easily have it as so many others do.  He just doesn't seem the type - or maybe he isn't that interested anyway.  One 2randy" brothe, one "gay" brother and one with better things on his mind!

Stannis is also very much about his ambitions for the Iron throne. He sees Melisandre as a powerful figure who can help him with his ambitions. He does not seem to Lust after Mel or anyone else for that matter. Mel wants the physical relationship for her own reasons (to control Stannis and make shadow babies) and Stannis is happy to provide.

Paramours and mistresses seem to be generally accepted in Westores and Stannis' wife is enamoured with Mel and does not seem to mind that Mel and Stannis get it on now and then.

[Titus Andronicus]

Why is everyone so convinced that Stannis would not resort to underhanded tactics, so long as the ends justify the means? Have we all forgotten the shadow children Mel bore to slay those that would stand against him, including his own brother? If it can be explained how it is that Stannis knows about Mance, then I can see this. However, it must be said: how does Ramsay know about Mance?

[starvinmarvin]

Ramsay had access to the spearwives that were left behind in Winterfell, especially the one who took Jeyne (fake Ayra) place in the bedchambers and the ones injured during the escape attempt. He could have tortured the information out of them, or seen the connection between the washerwomen (spearwives) and abel the singer with whom they traveled.

[Bolivar]

I just read Theon's last ADwD chapter, he does call Mance Abel... but perhaps there is a chance Stannis knew about what Mel was doing. He's not a fanatic like the others. He could probably give a rat's ass if they burn someone or not. Although he is becoming more and more occupied with the visions from the flame, I'm not so sure anymore.

Stannis REALLY wanted Jon on his side. They were on the same page about just about everything during their first meeting atop The Wall. And the Janos Slynt beheading scene said to me that Jon somewhat looks up to Stannis as someone he should emulate as a commander. He's also admitted that he's not impartial - he wants Stannis to win the Iron Throne and has actively helped him to do so, even before he learned of Arya. Stannis thinks Jon could potentially be his most important ally, how inspiring for morale if the Stag and the Direwolf joined together again. It would bring the North and potentially other lords to him easily. I think he also 'gets' that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. But it could also ruin their relationship as well if the lie was discovered.

John Reynolds, on 19 July 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Just because that scene was filmed for the HBO show doesn't make it canon.  I've always been conflicted on that topic because it seems so out of character for Stannis (despite his obviously unhappy marriage).

I actually also subscribe to this. When Davos confronts Stannis about the shadows murdering Renly and Ser Cortnay Penrose, he doesn't deny what happened with Penrose. But he swore that he had nothing to do with Renly's death, and that Davos' son Devan can even attest to it. Adultery is one thing, but I really can't see Stannis kinslaying.

[ab aeterno]

Bolivar, on 27 September 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

I actually also subscribe to this. When Davos confronts Stannis about the shadows murdering Renly and Ser Cortnay Penrose, he doesn't deny what happened with Penrose. But he swore that he had nothing to do with Renly's death, and that Davos' son Devan can even attest to it. Adultery is one thing, but I really can't see Stannis kinslaying.

Stannis is one of my favorite characters, but I don't buy this. Even if Stannis didn't admit to himself what was going to happen, or that he is responsible, he knows on some level. He knew more or less what Mel was going to do; she was either going to kill Renly or otherwise find some other method of forcing him to join Stannis, and Stannis already seemed to think that the latter was impossible. Stannis just absolved himself of blame for the situation. He looked the other way. Having said that, Stannis didn't technically kill Renly, so there is that.

[bully]

What is dead may never die, on 19 July 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

Hello All,

I'm pretty new to the forum as far as posting goes, though I spend a lot of time reading the threads and taking great enjoyment in it.

I have seen discussion on the topic as well as the various theories that are around so I apologize if this has been discussed, thought of, already presented, etc.

I have just finished my first re-read of the books and after reading the last Jon chapter from ADwD a few times over, and the Theon sample chapter from TWoW, I believe fully that the letter sent to Jon, was written by Stannis.

Given the amount of discussion on the topic alrady, I am only want to discuss the possiblity of who wrote the letter to Jon and why. I will not be talking about why the NW did what they did or the status of Jon.

First why I think it was Stannis:

The sample chapter has Stannis say to Justin Massey that "It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly.  "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead.  It may even be true.  You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

Seems an odd thing to say. I don't think that Stannis would anticipate someone spreading rumors of his demise without them acutally knowing that he is dead. Unless, he is planning to do so himself in order to draw out his enemies. Should Maester Tybald send a raven to Winterfell informing the Boltons that Stannis is dead, there's no way they take that its word. They most likely send the Frey's and Manderly's to confirm the truth of this. Here is where I can see the Frey's falling into the covered fishing holes to die (what better revenge than the North itself consuming the orchestrators of the Red Wedding!)

The next part is something that Theon says to Stannis in the sample the chapter:

"The north remembers.  The Red Wedding, Lady Hornwood's fingers, the sack of Winterfell, Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square, they remember all of it."  Bran and Rickon.  They were only miller's boys.  "Frey and Manderly will never combine their strengths.  They will come for you, but separately.  Lord Ramsay will not be far behind them.  He wants his bride back.  He wants his Reek."  

The underlined portion of the above quote is very similar to that of some of the language in the letter:

"I want my bride back. I want my Reek."

Not exactly the same, but pretty close. It would seem that the contents of this letter ( I did not want to quote the whole letter here) combine the knowledge of what Stannis knows of the the happenings at the Wall and what Theon knows is going on at Winterfell. Since Theon is Stannis' prisoner, it seems likely that he would inform Stannis of all he knows (after all, I don't he wants to go back to being Ramsay's prisoner).

Also, the mention of the word "crows" in the letter sticks out to me. As far as I can tell, the only people to call the Brothers of the NW "crows" are the Wildlings and how Ramsay would know that information and refer to it in the letter seems to be a bit of a stretch. However, Stannis has been at The Wall and has had direct contact with the NW and Wildlings both, and thus would know this.

Now, why would Stannis write this letter to Jon:

Seems pretty obvious to me, he is thoroughly outnumbered and needs help. At this point he does not know that Manderly and whatever force/army he has hiding is loyal to him and not the Boltons.

Stannis had intended on having the Wildlings settle The Gift and it is probably no secret to him that Jon intended to let them through the Wall to help man the abandoned castles. This letter was pure motivation to get Jon to rally the Wildlings around him to march South. And it worked until the NW decided to give Jon the Juluis Caesar treatment. Now had Jon made it down there I don't think it would have pleased him to know that he was lied to but at that point, he would have no choice but fight with Stannis against the Boltons.

Another reason is I feel that Stannis, at this point (he does not know that Davos is alive and looking for Rickon, also alive) is looking for something, anything to rally the North around him. Is there any other way to do so than to have the last surviving son of Lord Eddard Stark at his side? Although he is a bastard, it is in all likely hood that Robb named Jon his heir and any of the surviving Northmen who were in Robb's army would know this (and the Young Wolf's will is somewhere out there). I believe they would be content with a son of Eddard Stark as Lord of Winterfell, bastard and all as opposed to the Boltons.

That's all I've got for now, I'm sure there are things I am overlooking/not remebering/failing to mention and would love to see arguments for and against.

Thanks.

Really good hypothesis. But how could he get a seal from Dreadfort? And, actually, everyone gets to call the NW of crows... And, if Stannis knew that Jon was Robb's heir would he really lure him there to the midst of battle, risking to loose the north to Jon, instead of winning it? The lords would declare for Jon, not Stannis. And in fact, why haven't they done it yet? Did all the witnesses died at the RW?

[ns_gold]

Crackpot - Mel wrote it. Jon goes to help Stannis, also she could be suspecting he has to do with AAR or she could just be trying to get Jon Snow away from the wall.

[Ramsay Blow]

bully, on 29 October 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Really good hypothesis. But how could he get a seal from Dreadfort? And, actually, everyone gets to call the NW of crows... And, if Stannis knew that Jon was Robb's heir would he really lure him there to the midst of battle, risking to loose the north to Jon, instead of winning it? The lords would declare for Jon, not Stannis. And in fact, why haven't they done it yet? Did all the witnesses died at the RW?

Stannis has Maester tybald who is from the dreadfort.

[Great Winter Knight]

I am in the Stannis camp.  Taking out the whole not knowing the time line of when the letter arrives at NW and the sample chapter we have of WOW, the wordage of the letter and how the conversation between Theon and Stannis seems to close to be by 2 different people.(if that makes sense)  I think that Stannis is not a under hand kind of guys but, he knows he can't just come out and tell Jon to come help.  Stannis knows that Jon wouldn't do it.  But, if he paints a certain picture perhaps Jon would come down on his own accord.  Or perhaps before Stannis left he got with Jon and said that I will write to you and I will put certain codes in the letter to let you know what is happening with out coming out and saying it( for fear if the letter falls in the wrong hands).  Just a thought

[Black Maester Sam]

There isn't enough time for Jon to come from the wall to Stannis camp or WF before the Frey attack. In the sample capter Stannis knows that the battle could start at any moment, and he has only 2 ravens that will most likely fly to Winterfell.
The letter is with 99% probability not from Stannis.

[Quiet Isle]

John Reynolds, on 19 July 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Got a page quote from that?  The line from Mel's one POV chapter in Dance certainly doesn't prove it, could easily be interpreted that she's not sleeping since she's spending her time staring into the flames trying to keep informed on how Stannis is doing.

  The westerosorg founders have said that there is a line in the books where Melisandre says she doesn't like her bed empty, when Stannis leaves.  There is the implication, they believe a strong one, that they were definitely sleeping together.

[ab aeterno]

RAGNAROK, on 06 November 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

The westerosorg founders have said that there is a line in the books where Melisandre says she doesn't like her bed empty, when Stannis leaves.  There is the implication, they believe a strong one, that they were definitely sleeping together.

On the forums this is generally accepted, I think, as it is quite strongly implied throughout the books. From Davos in ACoK, to Mel in ADwD;

Edit: The line is:

Quote

With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use.

From her first chapter in ADwD.

Edited by ab aeterno, 06 November 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[bemused]

I think Selyse is in complete denial about the carnal side of Stannis' relationship with Mel .

Edited by bemused, 08 November 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[Wandering Wolf]

John Reynolds, on 19 July 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Just because that scene was filmed for the HBO show doesn't make it canon.  I've always been conflicted on that topic because it seems so out of character for Stannis (despite his obviously unhappy marriage).

[Quiet Isle]

Wandering Wolf, on 08 November 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

it's in the book. "With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use."  

[ab aeterno]

RAGNAROK, on 08 November 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

it's in the book. "With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use."  

Yeah, once you're alerted to it is very clearly implied throughout ASOIAF, even if it is never explicitly stated.

[TheKingwithTheSword]

Does anyone have a definitive list of the people that Robb had sign his declaration of naming jon a true born son of ned stark and heir to winterfell and the North?