Theon Sample Chapter; The Letter sent to Jon (Spoilers)

[Nicom]

I was really curious as to why the raven in the WoW Theon chapter was yelling out loud as if it were Jon's raven.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I was really curious as to why the raven in the WoW Theon chapter was yelling out loud as if it were Jon's raven.

Some people think that the ravens have been warged by Bran and Bloodraven.

[Mithras]

Some people think that the ravens have been warged by Bran and Bloodraven.

Bran was already trying to reach Theon and call his name in Winterfell. I think the ravens are a continuation of this effort and given their nervous state, time is running short. It is also noteworthy that Stannis "thinks" that the Northmen want to see Theon dead but they already know that the Stark boys are alive and they can probably deduce that the Boltons sacked Winterfell (from the survivors of that battle). I think Stannis is wrong about this. The Northmen want something else and probably not involves killing Theon (like sending him to the Wall to take the black).

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Bran was already trying to reach Theon and call his name in Winterfell. I think the ravens are a continuation of this effort and given their nervous state, time is running short. It is also noteworthy that Stannis "thinks" that the Northmen want to see Theon dead but they already know that the Stark boys are alive and they can probably deduce that the Boltons sacked Winterfell (from the survivors of that battle). I think Stannis is wrong about this. The Northmen want something else and probably not involves killing Theon (like sending him to the Wall to take the black).

Well, certainly the Manderlys know Rickon is alive and since they are working with the Umbers, I assume the Umbers know too. And Lady Dustin's interest in the crypts makes it look like the secret is out in Winterfell (maybe from the Hooded Man).

But, if there any indication that the Northerners who are with Stannis know? I mean, the Braavosi banker brought Theon and "Arya" to Stannis' camp.

[Mithras]

Well, certainly the Manderlys know Rickon is alive and since they are working with the Umbers, I assume the Umbers know too. And Lady Dustin's interest in the crypts makes it look like the secret is out in Winterfell (maybe from the Hooded Man).

But, if there any indication that the Northerners who are with Stannis know? I mean, the Braavosi banker brought Theon and "Arya" to Stannis' camp.

The Liddles and probably all the other mountain clans know.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

The Liddles and probably all the other mountain clans know.

Oh yeah, you're completely right. Man, Bran and Rickon being dead is the worst kept secret of all time.

Okay, second worst. First worst is Cercei and Jamie's incest.

[Scorched_Air]

How would the Umbers know that Rickon and Bran were not the ones hanged? I didn't think Ramsay trusted them, nor Roose (who learns about it from Reek in Book 3).

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

How would the Umbers know that Rickon and Bran were not the ones hanged? I didn't think Ramsay trusted them, nor Roose (who learns about it from Reek in Book 3).

The Manderly told them. The two houses are working together. Both houses helped Mance and when the Manderlys exited Winterfell, they didn't fall into the Umber pits unlike the Freys.

[Scorched_Air]

Helping Mance? What fools they were. I forgot they did, unfortunately.

Umber and Manderly working together is established fact, but I'm not sure if the other big houses like Glover are plotting together and if they know about the boys at all. The Manderlys surely should tell them as well, I would think.

[Scorched_Air]

Wait, where did the Manderlys get it from?

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Wait, where did the Manderlys get it from?

Well, the Manderlys have the testamony of Wex, but wanted confirmation. So, they sent Davos off to find Rickon.

Now, Davos' success is unknown at this point, but.....

A hooded man enters Winterfell and suddenly Lady Dustin wants to see the crypts. She goes down with Theon and makes note of four swords missing - the four swords Bran and Rickon took. The idea is that the hooded man came in and told everyone Rickon was alive. Lady Dustin wanted confirmation of her own, so she went down into the crypts.

[Mithras]

Wait, where did the Manderlys get it from?

I think the whole Wex story is far too stinky for my taste and I can't see a plausible way for it to work like that. I think Osha/Rickon first went to the White Harbor and Manderly is the one who sent them to Skagos.

[Scorched_Air]

Excellent point, skins! But would that hooded man be Davos? He wouldn't want to be recognized, but he'd have to contact Manderly first... not that stupid Dustin lady. I can not figure Davos being back so soon.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I think the whole Wex story is far too stinky for my taste and I can't see a plausible way for it to work like that. I think Osha/Rickon first went to the White Harbor and Manderly is the one who sent them to Skagos.

What, a 12-year-old boy following a Wildling, a half-giant and a couple direwolves hundreds of miles for no reason at all? That's totally what a scared 12-year-old who just witnessed a massacre would do. :)

I think Theon just talks in his sleep and Wex got all of the information from that.

There is no other way the "kinslayer" rumor could come out except from Theon's subconscious.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Excellent point, skins! But would that hooded man be Davos? He wouldn't want to be recognized, but he'd have to contact Manderly first... not that stupid Dustin lady. I can not figure Davos being back so soon.

The Hooded Man recognizes Theon, so he has to be a Northerner. Davos wouldn't know what Theon looked like.

Additionally, he has to be friendly to both the Umbers outside Winterfell and the Boltons inside Winterfell. In fact, he walks right up to Roose when he arrives.

Many people think Robett Glover. And I think that's a good guess.

[Scorched_Air]

Or it may be the mysterious, half-mythical Howland Reed...

[bemused]

AAAARGH! I just lost a whole post..and it was a long one .

:bang:

I'll try again later ..most of it was about why I can't agree with SS's assessment of Mance /Val /Jon / Stannis , so I'll come back to that...

Quick points for now...

ThunderG..." - the letter wasn't written in one go

- it is possible person 1 started it and person 2 finished it "

I agree with this. Person 1 being any one of Stannis , Mance or Ramsay , Person(s) 2 being the conspirators at the Wall.

I agree with Paper Waver that the Mountain clans know that Bran and Rickon are alive at least since the Liddle met Bran and Rickon heading north ( and maybe even before) ...I also agree that the Wex story is very fishy. Manderly used it to convince Davos - without letting Davos in on the plans of the Great Northern Conspiracy.

I think the Umber and Manderly men engaged in the shipbuilding probably intercepted Osha , Rickon and Wex long before they reached WH , and Manderly & Umber had them escorted to Skagos ( it would be too dangerous for them to actually enter WH .. too easily recognised. ..Plus the seas were not so stormy at that time. )

Lady Barbrey is lying to Roose ( and Theon) about her Stark hatred and is in the dangerous position of being the GNC mole in the Bolton Camp.

SSweetrobin ... Where do you get that the HM walked right up to Roose when he arrived .??? That hasn't happened as far as I know. What do you think are the signs of this ? ( I hope it's not merely that the HM was striding in the opposite direction to Theon. I've never bought that one. ).. Is there something else I've missed ?

The Hooded Man didn't appear until after Barbrey got Theon to open the crypts and IMO , she opened them for the HM... If she was checking for missing swords , it wasn't to confirm Wex's story, since ( as a GNC ally) the truth was already known to her.... We know of four swords that are missing , taken by Osha , Meera , Bran and Hodor , but in the Theon chapter...

Theon remembers saying to Asha ,

"The swords were gone. Four, I think, or five. I don't recall. The stone kings are angry."

... so she may have been looking for signs of something else.

Robett Glover was in WH , supposedly failing to raise men to retake Deepwood, but secretly with Manderly... He wouldn't be able to feign friendship with Roose since they both know Roose sent him into a trap at Duskendale ( Robett can certainly put 2 and 2 together, and Roose would not trust him... perhaps all the more so because Stannis has taken Deepwood Motte and let it be known he intends to return it to the Glovers)

"There is no other way the "kinslayer" rumor could come out except from Theon's subconscious" ...

Wait a minute...There is no kinslayer rumour ,unless you mean on the forums . ( As far as I know, that idea originated as a supposition of Bran Vras ) We see no rumour circulating. A couple of characters call Theon "kinslayer" ; one is a spearwife , who probably wouldn't know Bran and Rickon are alive .. and we know the wildlings have a more inclusive idea of family than is prevalent south of the wall ... the other is the HM ,who to my mind must be someone close to the Starks and thought Theon was treated pretty much as family . Even if he knows the boys are alive , he knows Theon claimed to have killed them ,and may think Theon would have if he had caught them. People aren't always precisely correct when wanting to insult someone , in our world ( see usage of mof ) or I'm sure , in Westeros.

ETA: When Roose ordered the Frey and Manderly forces out , the Freys were to take the King' s (main) Gate, Manderly , the east Gate. That's Manderly behind Frey. King's Gate is on the outside wall, East gate right behind it on the inside wall. Leaving WF you'd go through the East gate , then through the King's gate to get outside. So Manderly forces could not leave that way because of the chaos caused by the Freys stumbling into the pits... Roose would have had to change his orders , and there could have been some delay.

I think Roose wanted the Freys out first , because he trusts Manderly probably least of all his forces.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

SSweetrobin ... Where do you get that the HM walked right up to Roose when he arrived .??? That hasn't happened as far as I know. What do you think are the signs of this ? ( I hope it's not merely that the HM was striding in the opposite direction to Theon. I've never bought that one. ).. Is there something else I've missed ?

The Hooded Man didn't appear until after Barbrey got Theon to open the crypts and IMO , she opened them for the HM... If she was checking for missing swords , it wasn't to confirm Wex's story, since ( as a GNC ally) the truth was already known to her.... We know of four swords that are missing , taken by Osha , Meera , Bran and Hodor , but in the Theon chapter...

Theon remembers saying to Asha ,

"The swords were gone. Four, I think, or five. I don't recall. The stone kings are angry."

... so she may have been looking for signs of something else.

Robett Glover was in WH , supposedly failing to raise men to retake Deepwood, but secretly with Manderly... He wouldn't be able to feign friendship with Roose since they both know Roose sent him into a trap at Duskendale ( Robett can certainly put 2 and 2 together, and Roose would not trust him... perhaps all the more so because Stannis has taken Deepwood Motte and let it be known he intends to return it to the Glovers)

"There is no other way the "kinslayer" rumor could come out except from Theon's subconscious" ...

Wait a minute...There is no kinslayer rumour ,unless you mean on the forums . ( As far as I know, that idea originated as a supposition of Bran Vras ) We see no rumour circulating. A couple of characters call Theon "kinslayer" ; one is a spearwife , who probably wouldn't know Bran and Rickon are alive .. and we know the wildlings have a more inclusive idea of family than is prevalent south of the wall ... the other is the HM ,who to my mind must be someone close to the Starks and thought Theon was treated pretty much as family . Even if he knows the boys are alive , he knows Theon claimed to have killed them ,and may think Theon would have if he had caught them. People aren't always precisely correct when wanting to insult someone , in our world ( see usage of mof ) or I'm sure , in Westeros.

ETA: When Roose ordered the Frey and Manderly forces out , the Freys were to take the King' s (main) Gate, Manderly , the east Gate. That's Manderly behind Frey. King's Gate is on the outside wall, East gate right behind it on the inside wall. Leaving WF you'd go through the East gate , then through the King's gate to get outside. So Manderly forces could not leave that way because of the chaos caused by the Freys stumbling into the pits... Roose would have had to change his orders , and there could have been some delay.

I think Roose wanted the Freys out first , because he trusts Manderly probably least of all his forces.

You're right. I misremembered. It was just that the Hooden Man was walking towards the Great Hall as Theon was coming from it, so I assumed the HM was heading to tell Roose something.

Right again about Dustin going to the crypts before the HM came. I guess she heard a Bran and Rickon rumor from the Manderlys or Umbers. Or she was actually suddenly sentimental.

On kinslaying and such, I get that the Bran Vras theory is post hoc ergo propter hoc. It rests on the idea that because the HM is the first to use the term, therefore the two subsequent times (Rowan and Mors Umber) must be from him. Considering Mance and the Spearwives, the Umbers and the Manderlys are working together, the story could just come from the Manderlys and not the HM. That said, the insult appearing three times in such a short period of time is a little bit of a coincidence.

Now, there is no way to prove that the younger miller boy was Theon's. That said, Theon's unusual guilt about boys and his push back against the insult does show that Theon fears that he's a kinslayer. (When I say, unusual, I mean in Westeros. Normal people would feel guilty about killing children, but Theon seems to be the only person in Westeros who feels guilt period.). So, I'm totally sold on Theon thinking he might be a kinslayer, but only because its beautifully ironic that Theon's lesser murders are actually greater murders. So, think its quite likely the highlight of "kinslayer" may just be Theon's paranoia and guilt.

But, that said, if Theon talks in his sleep (which he probably does) and Wex knows he feels guilt about "kinslaying," it may be out that it's at a least a great dig at Theon.

[bemused]

SSweetrobin.... Yeah , re: Theon and the HM - The thing that's always bothered me about the idea that the HM must be going into the Great Hall is that we don't know how far away Theon was from the hall when he met the HM. We don't know if he had turned to his right or left, or walked straight ahead... We do know that the whole compound is riddled with intersecting walkways dug in the snow, and so the HM might have been going anywhere...

There's so much that doesn't add up about Barbrey Dustin that I think her Brandon story is an outright lie.. that as well as blaming Ramsay , she also blames Roose for Domeric's death , and possibly the death of her sister. I don't want to derail your thread , here , so I won't go off into detail, but I believe that she will eventually be shown to have always been a Stark loyalist. She heaps scorn on Manderly to Theon (and Roose) in WF, but interestingly , acts to deflect blame from him. ( She doesn't eat any pie , either ;) ) I believe she's been in cahoots with Wyman from the outset.

When Bran & co. left WF , Hodor had pushed the door to the crypts full open , dislodging the rubble blocking it. Someone closed the door and piled the rubble back up, before the wedding party arrived. Barbrey gets the door open, shows interest in the swords , and also in the fact that the crypts go deeper. I think she opens the crypts so the HM can get out.

I agree it would be suitably ironic if one of the miller's boys was in fact Theon's and of course , it's possible. However, the repetition of "kinslayer" may be intended to cause us to suspect that ... while perhaps being a set up for a future revelation. ... I just don't think that the characters show signs of thinking that. If we're to take one charcter's use of the term as proof of anything about other characters use of it , I'm more inclined to see Mors' use ( the last one we see ) the as the informative one .

That the Umbers have an extreme loyalty to the Starks is well documented. I think they would have seen Theon as being treated like family ... It's not that Mors passed a tale from one to the other ... but because we can understand why he might use the term, that same understanding could apply to Rowan and the HM.

We don't know much about Rowan , but that she also says .. “You have no right to mouth Lord Eddard’s words. Not you. Not ever. After what you did—” .. seems to show that she thinks Theon killed Bran and Rickon ( although she's repulsed by the idea of killing children , generally ). That she calls Ned "Lord Eddard" hints that , though a spearwife , she (or her mother) may have been stolen from south of the wall , perhaps from the Umbers , or one of the clans , who also are notable for Stark loyalty. Generally, a wildling would be inclined to use "Lord" in a more derogatory way ( like they use "kneeler" ), not in a way that implies such respect.

I think it's more likely she's heard of Theon's inclusion in the family from Mance, who saw where Theon was seated and how he was treated at the WF feast, compared to Ned's acknowledged bastard , rather than having heard tales about the miller's wife and her sons. Everyone who was around WF at that time , besides Theon , Ramsay and Wex , is apparently either dead or captive in the Dreadfort... That's not much of a breeding ground for rumour.

We know nothing about the HM , but the suggested recognition between him and Theon seems to identify him as someone close to the Starks or ( if, like me, you think he could be Benjen ) a Stark himself...and therefore likely to be using he word in the same way.

These characters are people just like us , and in our world not everyone called a "mofo" is actually thought to be one.

Bringing it back to Mance , while the Umbers and Manderly ( and in agreement with redriver , the Liddle ) helped him , I don't think they would necessarily tell him everything they know ,or let him in on the extent of their plans. They probably know him as Abel ( from past trips across the wall ) . They know he's Jon's agent sent to rescue Arya. They may or may not know he's Mance.

I'm sure Mance does have plans of his own , but I don't think he has a way of knowing about Tormund's people. He's must have spoken more with Jon before he left , but I don't agree he could have had much (if any) chance to speak to Val since their capture. ( But I do think Val was in on his original plan to get the people south , and in that respect they'd be thinking alike )

I can't duplicate that whole post I lost just off the top of my head , but here's some of it..

While it's true that according to Gilly .. Val begged the king to spare him. She said she’d let some kneeler marry her and never slit his throat if only Mance could live. ... I don't think Stannis would feel that he needed that offer. He would see it as his right as King , anyway, to order such marriages. He may understand the wildlings slightly better than Selyse does.. but maybe not a lot. When he offered Val to Jon , it's by no means clear that Val had already made her offer. Stannis makes his offer to Jon very early, and while he asks about Mance's honour , he doesn't ask about Val's ...And Stannis' attitude to women (apart from Mel) doesn't lead us to think that their wishes would be given much consideration by Stannis , unless their wishes coincided with plans he already had.

Val seems to me to fill a religious ,or semi-religious role among the free folk , and I don't think Mance or Val would make the slightest allusion to that , because of Mel. They'd let Stannis continue to think of her as important as Mance's sister in law.... Her real position probably goes a long way toward explaining her demeanor at "Mance's " execution. Whether she knew who was being burned , or not , I think she'd know Mance well enough to find "his" behaviour suspicious - but she'd have to remain stoic anyway, for the sake of the free folk.

There is an echo, in her description via Jon, of Lot's wife... Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones. ... She may or may not know it's not Mance, but she's witnessing the destruction of their plan , and perhaps even the ultimate destruction of her people.

[A Thousand Eyes]

The purpose of the letter?

The letter serves multiple purposes but I'll focus primarily on one of these purposes. As a vehicle to release Jon from his duties to the NW.

The reader realizes the limitations of Jon's story if he was to remain the Lord Commander of the NW. Jon's obligations as Lord Commander severely restrict his freedoms. The letter sets the table for Jon to not only surrender the title of Lord Commander but relinquish him of his vows to the NW. How can Jon legitimately be released from his oath to the Night's Watch? Death. Death is the only valid means according to the oath sworn. Stannis provided Jon with an out from the Night's Watch through the divine right of a king. According to the words spoken even a King absolving a brother of the NW from his oath would not be legitimate.

The true purpose of the letter is to set into motion the events leading to Jon's death and his subsequent resurrection.