445 replies to this topic

[Xray the Enforcer]

carry on.

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Arionis, on 22 July 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Like the sister-wife situation among Mormons? Elia being the first and more powerful wife and Lyanna the second one, both marriages being legal in Rhaegar eyes?
I can see that.

Budj, on 22 July 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

I don't see why Elia would care that much considering their marriage was political...as long as her off-spring were not pushed aside for the crown then I think Rhaegar probably could have done what he wanted in this situation.

Exactly what Budj said. Also, Dorne could gain some favors in exchange for their cooperation: positions in the Small Council, in the Faith, the Citadel, maybe eventually even a greater part in the Kingsguard, just to name a few.

Lady Aislinn, on 22 July 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

For lack of a better word, yes. She doesn't strike me as someone who play second fiddle to the first wife. I'm pretty sure she's infatuated with him but to "dishonor" her family? She is a Stark after all. But then again, crazier things have been done for love. It's just a question though.

Lyanna liked to defy social conventions - I'd think her a hypocrite if she wouldn't do the same in this case. Also, the question is: what would she want by marrying Rhaegar? Being the most important woman in the realm, politically, or having him, specifically, his love or whatever, for herself? And even if her interests were political, she would still be the second most important woman in the realm, a higher position than she would have by marrying Robert. And her son would be second in line when Rhaegar became king. Considering Elia couldn't have any more children and wouldn't be the first in Rhaegar's thoughts anyway, I'd say that's a great bargain she made.

But even assuming she wouldn't want to be a second wife, we're talking about a woman in love here, and a 16-year-old at that - it wouldn't be that hard for Rhaegar to persuade her about a thing or two. Also, if she ran away with him, or was kidnapped, being second wife would be her only chance of preserving her and her family's honor, assuming that mattered so much to her.

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 22 July 2012 - 04:10 PM.

[Alia of the knife]

I think when we talk about Lyanna and her willfullness, her "wolfs blood," and steely nature, we have to keep in the context of Martins writing, and admittedly, I am a Lyanna fangirl, but there is a reason for it- it's the way, thus far, that Martin has written her.

I don't like some of the other ladies for the same reasons, Cersei, Caitlyn, Arianne, Margery, etc., because (with the exception of Cailtyn), they all use their bodies to get what they want, so they are not "unconventional"
Cersei is trying to teach Sansa these lessons, with Caitlyn inadvertantly teaching her vanity, but it remains to be seen if she goes down that same road.

Lyanna and Arya on the other hand are unconventional, because even though they are beautiful, (I think Arya will surprise everyone much to her own aggravation), they choose the much harder path of openly challenging injustices when they encounter them, which is perhaps a manifestation of this "wolfs" blood, and may mean they also rely on their instincts rather than wait for others, which puts them in danger in that society, much the same way it did Brandon when he attempted to flout a King and his son.
Brandon may have been a fool, but Hoster called him an galant fool, at least in the instance of doubt about the well being, and honor of his Sister when he ran after her, rather than waiting for his Father.

If Martin wanted to portray Lyannas "willfulness,"  or "Wolfs blood," in a more shallow, or seedy way, he could have written her like some of the other female characters.
But, the fact that he wrote Howland Reeds backstory of being bullied and Lyanna battling his bullies with a Tourney sword, and then we are to accept that Lyanna is the Mystery Knight, she becomes more than just a girl who just likes to joust, carry a sword, or have a little of the wolfs blood,   for the sake of shock value, or "just because she can."

I think when Martin gives the analogy of the 'Wolfs Blood," I don't think he's just talking about mindless passion, passion is a factor, but I think he's also talking about danger as well.
And both Brandon and Lyanna were a little on the dangerous side I think, and I mean angry dangerous, not "spank-me-I've-been-naughty" dangerous.

When the Knight of the Laughing Tree admonishes the Lords to teach their squires better manners, that indicates that that means something to this Mystery Knight.
If it is Lyanna, then Martin is indicating something about her personality.
That passion to fight is a manifestation of both Arya and Lyannas spirit, and the "unconventional" thing is that they don't let being females and "understanding their place," stop them.
And yes, for that time period, they were risking not only their safety, but the Honor of their House, because as women of that era they were an extention of the honor of their House and family with all the social pressures and expectations that went with it.

Sometimes, Cersei and Jaimie cross-dressed which was "unconventional" too, but it was because they could, not because they were going to go out and right wrongs, or that it meant anything. They were trying "to get over."

What makes both Lyanna and Arya truly unconventional and Brienne as well, (and I think had Brienne been beautiful, she still would have followed the same path), is that they claim honor for themselves as an expression of their own individuality, rather than an extention of their House, family, and their men.
That would have been revolutionary in that time, not just "rebellious."

HOWEVER, for Lyanna, her actions can bring down her family, her House, and even call her Father and Brothers Leadership into question- she shouldn't be fighting for one of their Bannermen, it should be Brandon, or Ned, so though it seems a good thing, it's a bad thing.

Much is discussed about what Rhaegar can do like polygamy, divorce, etc., but Lyanna in the confines of Feudal society can do very little because of so many ramifications to other people besides herself, because she's the extention of others honor.

Also, if Rhaegar is to be as Noble as everyone believes he is, I think Martin writes a female counterpart that can capture his admiration, imagination, as well as his heart and the "prophesy" thing is not mutually exclusive in this train of thought.

Lyanna may have been a woman-child, but if she's the KotLT, then Rhaegars Father has sent every able Warrior, including him, out to hunt "him" down.

Thats some child.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 24 July 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I will say it again:

It makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER for Elia to accept Rhaegar having another wife, specially one from a powerful house. It adds absolutely nothing to her or to the Martells, and puts EVERYTHING at risk, including her life and the lives of her children. What's stopping someone from arranging an "accident" for Aegon or Elia so Lyanna or her son can become first in line? Or to begin a war for Rhaegar's younger son to become King instead over some pretext, like being more popular or "Rhaegar wanted him to rule, since he loved Lady Lyanna best"- after all, that was pretty much how the Blackfyre Rebellion strated.

This theory only exists for Rhaegar apologists to make his actions somewhat acceptable.

[Budj]

Winterfell is Burning, on 22 July 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

I will say it again:

It makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER for Elia to accept Rhaegar having another wife, specially one from a powerful house. It adds absolutely nothing to her or to the Martells, and puts EVERYTHING at risk, including her life and the lives of her children. What's stopping someone from arranging an "accident" for Aegon or Elia so Lyanna or her son can become first in line? Or to begin a war for Rhaegar's younger son to become King instead over some pretext, like being more popular or "Rhaegar wanted him to rule, since he loved Lady Lyanna best"- after all, that was pretty much how the Blackfyre Rebellion strated.

This theory only exists for Rhaegar apologists to make his actions somewhat acceptable.

And also to find reasons why BR seems to think Jon is King (as well as the last 3 Targ Kingsguard...)...or at least hints at it.  Have to agree it is all speculation at this point, but it is trying to make sense of how Jon can be legitimate...because a bastard-born child would not have been a concern when the real supposed heir (to the public) Viserys is still running about.

[the quiltmaker]

I'm not a Rhaegar apologist. Targs had accepted multiple wives as a family "tradition". He was a Targ. That's how he could justify it.

As to Lyanna's reasons to elope, if she did.....she was 16 and "in love". She's betrothed to a man who she knows will be unfaithful to her and doesn't want to marry him. She's offered a romantic, exciting alternative and she took it.  She was implusive and alittle wild, like her brother and Arya. She probably didn't think too much about being the second wife. In the end it cost both Lyanna and Brandon. I hope Arya has better luck.

[Alia of the knife]

I tend to agree that really, the polygamy thing only works for Rhaegar.

In arguing Lyannas unconventionality in claiming the concept of honor for herself as an individual vs. the reality of her circumstances in that time and place, whether Lyanna loved Rhaegar or not, she had no freedom to do anything unless bringing all hell down on herself, her family and House, as well as the North.

And if honor meant that much to her, willingly running off, (despite whatever love she may have had for Rhaegar), with a married man, Crown Prince or no, who already had heirs makes her such a hypocrite, that despite her youth, could not be lost on her.
It's one thing to run off to escape an unwanted marriage, but another thing entirely to willingly run off with a married man to elope with him, to escape that unwanted marriage.
The breadth and scope of the ramifications of her actions if she went willingly, can't be overstated.

Honestly, when I first read of Lyanna, and then saw how Arya was suppposed to be a reflection of her, (up to a point), I thought the opposite, and figured she'd be the one woman in the Kingdom to not be a Rhaegar groupie, tell him the truth, and that it wasn't going to work- no matter what her private feelings were.
And Arya was so impressed with Prince Joffrey, she took his sword away from him.
Arya was never impressed with the Prince, and that was before she knew his true nature.

Now, in the end, something happened, there was a baby, and I suspect he married her whether he could or not, making Jon for all intents and purposes, legitimate.

In the previous thread, someone suggested Rhaegar most likely just took her, rather than ask his Fathers permission for her hand, knowing Aerys would deny him, and given her realistic position in Feudal society, I suspect he did kidnap her, taking the hit to his honor, but understanding he'd be forgiven for it- which he was right.

Everyone talks about how unhappy he was, blames poor Elia for it, and says if only he'd married Cersei, Dany, Patchface, etc, he'd never run off with Lyanna.

As a tactic, or strategy, the kidnapping of Noble women in this era in order to force a marriage either on the respective families part, society, or both and then get her quickly with child so the union is accepted and can't be put aside, is not really clever, or original, but it works.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 22 July 2012 - 09:54 PM.

[the quiltmaker]

I had always thought that Lyanna  had gone with him willingly. Maybe she was kidnapped. She could still beg for the life of her child, even if she was raped.

Rhaegor probably justified it by thinking that he was fulfilling a prophecy . The ends justifying the means.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Budj, on 22 July 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

And also to find reasons why BR seems to think Jon is King (as well as the last 3 Targ Kingsguard...)...or at least hints at it.  Have to agree it is all speculation at this point, but it is trying to make sense of how Jon can be legitimate...because a bastard-born child would not have been a concern when the real supposed heir (to the public) Viserys is still running about.

Even if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna (and it's debatable whether it was possible or not), Elia would have not consented to it, because she had every reason not to. Only a mad woman would in these circunstances.

the quiltmaker, on 22 July 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

I'm not a Rhaegar apologist. Targs had accepted multiple wives as a family "tradition". He was a Targ. That's how he could justify it.

I'm not debating the idea that Rhaegar would try to get Lyanna to be a second wife, I'm debating the idea that Elia would accept it, let alone gladly like people are suggesting.

Alia of the knife, on 22 July 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

As a tactic, or strategy, the kidnapping of Noble women in this era in order to force a marriage either on the respective families part, society, or both and then get her quickly with child so the union is accepted and can't be put aside, is not really clever, or original, but it works.

I honestly don't remember any real life examples similar to this.

And as for in the ASOIAF world, this story could only end with a war, or Rhaegar facing either one of Robert, Brandon or Oberyn in a duel, if not all three. There's no way Rhaegar lives long.

[Apple Martini]

the quiltmaker, on 22 July 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

I had always thought that Lyanna  had gone with him willingly. Maybe she was kidnapped. She could still beg for the life of her child, even if she was raped.

Rhaegor probably justified it by thinking that he was fulfilling a prophecy . The ends justifying the means.

Even if most of what we hear about the events are from Rhaegar's perspective — "He loved his Lady Lyanna" — I don't see any indication that Lyanna went unwillingly and/or was raped.

[E-Ro]

I dont think lyanna was raped, it is possible but I dont think so. Ned remembers him so fondly, if he raped lyanna ned would not think of him so positively. I just would like to know what does this all mean for jon? does it mean azor ahai, or the iron throne? Or both? I really want westeros to have seperate kingdoms once again, so him being rickons regent would be interesting and rickon being king of the north and riverlands, he could take moat cailin or the dreadfort for his seat.

[the quiltmaker]

Apple Martini, on 22 July 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

Even if most of what we hear about the events are from Rhaegar's perspective — "He loved his Lady Lyanna" — I don't see any indication that Lyanna went unwillingly and/or was raped.

Was there any indication that she went willingly? Is there anything that says so?

[Winterfell is Burning]

Ned doesn't remember Rhaegar "fondly"- all he does think about Rhaegar is that he was unlikely to visit brothels.

[E-Ro]

Winterfell is Burning, on 22 July 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Ned doesn't remember Rhaegar "fondly"- all he does think about Rhaegar is that he was unlikely to visit brothels.

Hnmmm, you could call that fondly, I geuss. Why would a rapist not visit brothels?

[the quiltmaker]

Wasn't Rhaegar already dead when Ned found Lyanna?

If she had been raped, Ned would think that Robert had avenged her, right?
Or did he find out about  Rhaegar's death later? If he didn't think Rhaegar was already  dead and he thought she was raped wouldn't he want to kill him? Seems like we would have heard about that.

[Winterfell is Burning]

E-Ro, on 22 July 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

Hnmmm, you could call that fondly, I geuss. Why would a rapist not visit brothels?

Depends on what kind of personality. Aerys raped Rhaella, yet I doubt he was the type to visited brothels. I can't imagine the Dothraki going to brothels either.

[Ursa]

Elia may have grudgingly agreed to a second wife for a very practical reason - keeping Viserys off the Iron Throne.  Barristan tells Dany that Viserys had already started to show signs of the Targ family madness as a child and with the extreme case of how bat-shit nuts Aerys was, people are going to be worried if one of his sons starts to show similar signs.
Elia has one son, so if something happens to Aegon (illness, accidents ect) then Viserys is now the heir.  She's lived in Kingslanding for years with her crazy good-father, so she knows first hand how serious this is.  Both Summerhall and the Great Spring Sickness showed just how easy it is to loose multiple family members in a short time.  It's not inconceivable that Viserys might be king - but that chance drops if Rhaegar has more sons. Elia can't give him more sons.  So one option is another wife.  Elia doesn't have to be happy with the idea to agree with it, especially if she's gotten some agreement from Rhaegar that her son will stay the heir no matter how many sons he might have with Lyanna.  And I tend to think that Elia likely privately thought the whole "third head" was BS - Rhaegar needs more than just one more child to keep the Targ dynasty strong.

[Apple Martini]

the quiltmaker, on 22 July 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Was there any indication that she went willingly? Is there anything that says so?

The only person who ever refers to Rhaegar as a kidnapper and rapist is Robert (Bran mentions this, but likely got propaganda info). Ned doesn't seem to think of him one way or the other — wouldn't he think of someone who'd raped his sister with animosity?

Ned also talks to Arya about Lyanna's "wolf blood" that led her to an early grave. This strongly implies that Lyanna was at least somewhat complicit in her own downfall. I doubt Ned would attribute that sort of thing to his sister if she'd been a wilting flower in distress.

Speaking of flowers — Lyanna still apparently has blue roses in her chamber at the Tower of Joy. Odd that she'd choose to keep them if she associated them with her rapist. Finally, Dany sees a vision of the blue rose on the wall of ice. When the rose is blooming, it "fills the air with sweetness." I believe that thematically implies that Rhaegar and Lyanna's union was loving and consensual ("sweet") and that Jon is the product of it.

Edited by Apple Martini, 22 July 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[E-Ro]

Winterfell is Burning, on 22 July 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Depends on what kind of personality. Aerys raped Rhaella, yet I doubt he was the type to visited brothels. I can't imagine the Dothraki going to brothels either.

Ok, I concede this is true, still dont think she was raped, as I said its possible but I dont think so. I dont like rhager, I dont like any targ, im not trying to defend him or anything. If she was raped could he have forcibly married her as well?

[rmholt]

Apple Martini, on 22 July 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

The only person who ever refers to Rhaegar as a kidnapper and rapist is Robert (Bran mentions this, but likely got propaganda info). Ned doesn't seem to think of him one way or the other — wouldn't he think of someone who'd raped his sister with animosity?

Ned also talks to Arya about Lyanna's "wolf blood" that led her to an early grave. This strongly implies that Lyanna was at least somewhat complicit in her own downfall. I doubt Ned would attribute that sort of thing to his sister if she'd been a wilting flower in distress.

Speaking of flowers — Lyanna still apparently has blue roses in her chamber at the Tower of Joy. Odd that she'd choose to keep them if she associated them with her rapist. Finally, Dany sees a vision of the blue rose on the wall of ice. When the rose is blooming, it "fills the air with sweetness." I believe that thematically implies that Rhaegar and Lyanna's union was loving and consensual ("sweet") and that Jon is the product of it.

Yes she had blue roses in her hands which had wilted to black at least in Ned's dream.  The blue rose is all full of positive.  It is the most valuable flower.  Bael left one in place of Starks daughter.  It grows in the show. It is a devil to be pulled up -- oops wrong story.  

Marie

[Alia of the knife]

Winterfell is Burning, on 22 July 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

Even if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna (and it's debatable whether it was possible or not), Elia would have not consented to it, because she had every reason not to. Only a mad woman would in these circunstances.



I'm not debating the idea that Rhaegar would try to get Lyanna to be a second wife, I'm debating the idea that Elia would accept it, let alone gladly like people are suggesting.



I honestly don't remember any real life examples similar to this.

And as for in the ASOIAF world, this story could only end with a war, or Rhaegar facing either one of Robert, Brandon or Oberyn in a duel, if not all three. There's no way Rhaegar lives long.

In real history, there was a Courtier in the English Court who kidnapped one of the Queens Ladies in Waiting, forcing her to become his mistress, and then later his wife.
He himself was married to the Kings cousin, and it outraged the family, and of course the Court.
In that case, the King allowed the divorce of his cousin, and of course, the second marriage saved the virtue of the woman he kidnapped.