131 replies to this topic

[Jayce]

For those who corrected me by reminding me that Harrion is still alive and therefore heir, thank you. What I said would only be the case if Alys was the heir (special circumstances), but with Harrion alive this is not the case.

[Gurkhal]

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

I don't think you're honestly looking at the picture present.

I am very honest. Being boring is the most horrible crime a fictional character can commit and there is no great virtue for a fictional character than to be interesting. I find the Boltons very interesting and this I want them to stick around in a fictional setting. Simple as that.

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

They forcibly married a widow, and left her to starve in a tower, which she did after she ate her own fingers before the end.

"They" did not do that, but Ramsay did that.

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

They betrayed the castellan of their king, and sabotaged his inevitably successful retaking of their capital, killing him and then sacking and burning the castle, and murdering his people.

Ramsay and not "the Boltons" did that.

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

They then sabotaged their kings war efforts in the south, sending his men to die in pointless missions.

Roose did that, yes.

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Then, they outright just killed their king, and their brothers in arms, both noble and lowborn.

Roose did it and no "the Boltons". As in regards to nobles we don't know which ones were killed by Frey or Bolton soldiers.

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

They trick up a fake sister of the king they murdered, and force her to marry them.

Roose took up an offer from Tywin, if I recall, and then Ramsay married her. So yes you are right on that point. Not very nice but except for Ramsay's outstanding evil I wouldn't really raise and eyebrow. The Orys Baratheons were even worse when he first killed the father and then married the daughter.

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Reading all that they have done, now matter how interesting you find them, it's silly and unrealistic to expect them to survive the series.

Its fantasy. You get the name of the genre? I find them very interesting and want them as a House to survive but I do not expect them to survive. Still its Asoiaf so I wouldn't bet it all that it will end with all bad guys getting a traditional fanatasy extermination and everything will be happy everafter.

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

We dont know what they did when they rebelled with the Greystarks, but I honestly doubt it was as damaging as what Roose and Ramsay have pulled off.

They did flay Starks and wore them as skins before they submitted yet were allowod to remain alive. That's something of the tolerance that at least the Starks of old had, probably because they were no stranger to similar course of actions themselves.

For all we know maybe the old Starks kept the Boltons around to ensure they wouldn't get soft?

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

The Starks will want the boltons Gone, and even if they were stupid enough not to, the Northmen will.

Maybe and maybe not. They will want Roose and Ramsay gone but if they want the entire House destroyed is an entire different thing. You are likely right as I can't see Martin doing something as radical as allowing the Boltons to get through the series but I still hope they will.

LordBloodraven, on 23 July 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

We don't know how the last Bolton rebellion was stopped. For all we know a cadet branch fought along the Starks and was given the Dreadfort after victory. Baelor the Blessed might be born among them, it wouldn't change the fact that they sabotaged the North's war efforts, killed their king, tried to took over the North by marrying their liege daughter to a psychopath.

Maybe, maybe not, but we do not know of it went.

LordBloodraven, on 23 July 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

I don't see how any Houses would want the Boltons as bannermen after all they did. This is more Lannister fanboyism than objectivity

Well the Starks wanted the Boltons as bannermen after flaying Starks and using them for clothing, and more people in the series have wanted stranger bannermen. Also I wouldn't call it Lannister fanboyism as we're not talking about House Lannister but more like it either Bolton fanboyism or fascination with House Bolton.

LordBloodraven, on 23 July 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

No there mustn't. Reread ACOK to ASOS and you'll see that the Boltons tried to root out the Starks from Winterfell to take their place.

Just because the Boltons tried to do something don't mean I must support it. I want to preserv as many interesting House as I can and the Boltons are a very interesting example and I would be sad to see the end of their story.

[Mulled Wino]

I'm in with Gurkhal.  I love the Boltons as characters...

[Vympel]

Gurkhal, on 23 July 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

No it musn't! Just like should be a Stark in Winterfell, an Arryn in Eyrie and a Lannister in Casterly Rock there must be a Bolton in the Deadfort.

The Boltons aren't a real Great House, irrespective of the Lannisters raising them up as one in the Stark's place. IMO, only Great Houses have any real claim to their ancestral seat that a reader should be invested in. House Bolton, so far as we know, is just Roose and Ramsay, and maybe unborn children from Fat Walda. The House will almost certainly be wiped out before the end of the series.

And quite frankly, they're not terribly likeable, so I doubt many people agree the Boltons should keep the Dreadfort like say Edmure should keep Riverrun.

Edited by Vympel, 23 July 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[Last of the Darklyns]

Gurkhal, on 23 July 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

Its rather easy as a matter of fact. I find the Boltons very interesting and they have in the previous times been forgiven their rebellion even when others, like the Greystarks, were not. I see no reason to want to extinguish and entire family of ancient history and tradition if its not absolutely necessary. Look at Domeric for example and you can see a Bolton who don't seem to have been so bad. If the Karstarks are scared of the Boltons then simply take Walda's child as ward in Winterfell or marry her to a trusted man who becomes the new lord Bolton. Problem solved.

Rebellion, yes.

Betrayal and murder of overlord while under guest right, no.

[Arya Targaryen]

Jayce, on 23 July 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

For those who corrected me by reminding me that Harrion is still alive and therefore heir, thank you. What I said would only be the case if Alys was the heir (special circumstances), but with Harrion alive this is not the case.

Actually, Harrion is the Lord now and Alys is the heir.
Since Alys seems to love her brother (she was afraid that he will be killed because Arnolf joined Stannis - and Arnolf joined for exactly that reason) - I have no doubt that if Harrion turns up, alive and well, Alys won't fight him, so there is no need to wipe out House Thenn. They may be rewarded for keeping Karhold safe for Harrion. If Harrion dies, Karhold passes to Alys, who will become Lady Karstark, and her children will be Karstarks, too (at least the one who inherits after her) Just like in the case of the Stark girl and Bael.

And I don't understand why you guys say that Jon had no right to marry Alys to Sigorn. Alys was willing, and that's the point. When Robb left Winterfell, Bran became the Lord of Winterfell, the Stark in Winterfell. If Robb was captured, Bran would have every right to act as the Lord, and not just as a heir. Like Robb could call the banners, even when Ned was alive (and captive).
So in this case Alys has every right to do as she pleases, because she is the Lady of Karhold, until Harrion comes back. The problem was, that Arnolf and co. usurped that right, and wanted to force her to marry. And Arnolf DID NOT have the right to arrange marriages. Alys does. She married Sigorn willingly. And Jon didn't do it for pleasing Stannis. He wanted to get rid of a huge problem (Sigorn - and what to do with him), and he did so while securing the Karstarks' loyalty by helping Alys. Smart move, I'd say.

[devilrob6]

Gurkhal, on 23 July 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

No it musn't! Just like should be a Stark in Winterfell, an Arryn in Eyrie and a Lannister in Casterly Rock there must be a Bolton in the Deadfort.

Or a Reyne in Castamere ?

[Gurkhal]

Vympel, on 23 July 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

The Boltons aren't a real Great House, irrespective of the Lannisters raising them up as one in the Stark's place. IMO, only Great Houses have any real claim to their ancestral seat that a reader should be invested in. House Bolton, so far as we know, is just Roose and Ramsay, and maybe unborn children from Fat Walda. The House will almost certainly be wiped out before the end of the series.

I was only using examples for Houses with keeps associated with them. I might just as well have used the Karstarks and the Florents to make my point. What the read should or should not be invested in is irrelevant to what the read is invested in. We know, if I remember correctly, that Walda is pregnant so there's one Bolton who haven't done anyone anything. Members may be punished but the House as such should be preserved.

Vympel, on 23 July 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

And quite frankly, they're not terribly likeable, so I doubt many people agree the Boltons should keep the Dreadfort like say Edmure should keep Riverrun.

I agree they are not likeable as a mate you want to have, but they are very interesting and fascinating as fictional characters. And for that virtue they have a stonger claim to life than many other characters who are allowed to live.

Last of the Darklyns, on 23 July 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Rebellion, yes.

That's their crime.

Last of the Darklyns, on 23 July 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Betrayal and murder of overlord while under guest right, no.

They never gav any guest rights to the Starks and as far as I can see the blame falls entirely on the Freys, who gav them and broke them first, as hosts.

[Gurkhal]

devilrob6, on 23 July 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Or a Reyne in Castamere ?

Exactly! Exterminating two entire Houses was a bit to much. It would have been better to just hang the adult male members high, install a castellan and regent for the children, send any complicit adult woman into the Silent Sisters and let the children make their oaths under the corpses of their fathers, brothers and uncles.

[Darth Rivers]

Gurkhal, on 23 July 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

The common soldiers probably won't care much for Karhold and just think that one lord is pretty much similar to another lord.

What the flying fuck? Why would Karstark retainers think that? That's like suggesting Davos Seaworth wouldn't care who rules Dragonstone, because all lords are the same.

[Gurkhal]

Darth Rivers, on 23 July 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

What the flying fuck? Why would Karstark retainers think that? That's like suggesting Davos Seaworth wouldn't care who rules Dragonstone, because all lords are the same.

Davos is no common soldier but a noble raised up by Stannis and pretty much defined by the virtue of loyalty. Most of the Karstark soldiers are normal farmers and woodsmen who probably only wants to get home alive when the lords are done with their war. The proper men-at-arms and bannermen might object but they will still be in a great minority.

[The Frosted King]

It would be a stark contrast to the overall realism of the story if the Bolton line wasn't extinguished. The fact that as of now, there's only two, who are both implicit in the crime, makes their end all the more certain.

And just because you find them boring, doesn't mean all do. There must be a reason why they're the most popular cause in the whole saga.

[devilrob6]

Gurkhal, on 23 July 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Exactly! Exterminating two entire Houses was a bit to much. It would have been better to just hang the adult male members high, install a castellan and regent for the children, send any complicit adult woman into the Silent Sisters and let the children make their oaths under the corpses of their fathers, brothers and uncles.

True. but the fact remains that the house disappeared. The same is likely to happen to the Boltons, unless Walda produces a male heir that isn't killed by Ramsay. I don't see Roose and Ramsay still being alive at the end of the story.

[The Frosted King]

devilrob6, on 23 July 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

True. but the fact remains that the house disappeared. The same is likely to happen to the Boltons, unless Walda produces a male heir that isn't killed by Ramsay. I don't see Roose and Ramsay still being alive at the end of the story.

Any male heir is likely heir to nothing should the Starks rise again.
You can't do what Roose and Ramsay have done and not expect it to reverberate throughout history.
The sins of the father are carried by the sons.
Too many factors are aligning that point to new bannermen in need of lands, for known traitors to be allowed to keep their honors and titles.
The Bolton name will be a curse and warning to overambitious lords for a long time in the north and south, I imagine.
House Thenn of the Dreadfort has a very nice ring to it.

[Gurkhal]

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

It would be a stark contrast to the overall realism of the story if the Bolton line wasn't extinguished. The fact that as of now, there's only two, who are both implicit in the crime, makes their end all the more certain.

And just because you find them boring, doesn't mean all do. There must be a reason why they're the most popular cause in the whole saga.

Actually there are four Boltons, Roose, Ramsay, Walda and her child. Two of those are innocent and two guilty. I don't see it at all as unrealistic that the two innocent Boltons are spared to continue that House. As I have already said the Starks can always let some trusted son of a bannerman marry Walda Frey and become the new lord Bolton and things are wraped up pretty well. Just look at how the Lannisters at Darry flies the Plowing Man and we can see that Darry lives on in some way despite being officially extinct.

devilrob6, on 23 July 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

True. but the fact remains that the house disappeared. The same is likely to happen to the Boltons, unless Walda produces a male heir that isn't killed by Ramsay. I don't see Roose and Ramsay still being alive at the end of the story.

Well to be honest I don't think that Ramsay will be alive by the time that Walda gives birth because the battle with Stannis will be finished long before that. In fact it wouldn't suprise me that if Stannis wins the battle he'll either put lady Walda as lady Bolton under a trusted castellan or marry her with one of his knights and put them in the Dreadfort. And I hope at least that they'll take on the Bolton name.  

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Any male heir is likely heir to nothing should the Starks rise again.
You can't do what Roose and Ramsay have done and not expect it to reverberate throughout history.
The sins of the father are carried by the sons.
Too many factors are aligning that point to new bannermen in need of lands, for known traitors to be allowed to keep their honors and titles.
The Bolton name will be a curse and warning to overambitious lords for a long time in the north and south, I imagine.
House Thenn of the Dreadfort has a very nice ring to it.

No way, sorry, but this isn't going to happen. The Boltons arn't even close to the Freys who are the only ones destined for the future you are laying out here.

[Greywater Reed]

Last of the Darklyns, on 23 July 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

Obviously their strength is greater than the Thenn's, both in numbers, and in weapons - Thenns use bronze.

Relatively spurious argument, there'll be plenty of steel swords and armour lying around Karhold for the Thenns to pick up.

[The Frosted King]

Gurkhal, on 23 July 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

Actually there are four Boltons, Roose, Ramsay, Walda and her child. Two of those are innocent and two guilty. I don't see it at all as unrealistic that the two innocent Boltons are spared to continue that House. As I have already said the Starks can always let some trusted son of a bannerman marry Walda Frey and become the new lord Bolton and things are wraped up pretty well. Just look at how the Lannisters at Darry flies the Plowing Man and we can see that Darry lives on in some way despite being officially extinct.



Well to be honest I don't think that Ramsay will be alive by the time that Walda gives birth because the battle with Stannis will be finished long before that. In fact it wouldn't suprise me that if Stannis wins the battle he'll either put lady Walda as lady Bolton under a trusted castellan or marry her with one of his knights and put them in the Dreadfort. And I hope at least that they'll take on the Bolton name.  



No way, sorry, but this isn't going to happen. The Boltons arn't even close to the Freys who are the only ones destined for the future you are laying out here.

The Bolton name is associated with murder, avarice, disloyalty, cruelty and perversity.
Why such a name is so important to you is a mystery.

[Gurkhal]

Scootydowop, on 23 July 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

The Bolton name is associated with murder, avarice, disloyalty, cruelty and perversity.
Why such a name is so important to you is a mystery.

It's a mystery to you.

I am fascinated by the Bolton characters and their history and would not like to see them go out, even in a blaze of glory.

Edited by Gurkhal, 23 July 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Pod The Impaler]

Last of the Darklyns, on 23 July 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

So what's the future of House Thenn and House Karstark?

I see a merger, with House Thenn being a power in the North, a new house. Of course, that's all conditional on the result of events (see below).

Grip, on 23 July 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

But who gave Jon authority to be this involved in the affairs of the North? He is the LC of the NW, not the warden of the North. He didnt have the permission to act in this way, he took it upon himself without the consent of the northern houses or even of many of the higher officers of his own watch. If anything he should have maintained status quo with the wildlings, as was the case for such a long time. The fault imo lies with Jon, not the wildlings per se. Like Dany's freeing of the slaves Jons move might look good at first but it will have serious consequences, and in his case has already been demonstrated.

^^^ Thus spake Bowen Marsh.


Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. His authority to do this comes from the mission of the Night's Watch: protect the living (al of them) against the onslaught of the Others and their undead servitors. Whatever else the Wildlings and giants might be, they are alive. An unmanned wall is of no use. The Wildlings are allies, not enemies.
Houses, territories, birthrights, laws of succession, the war for the Iron Throne, etc. - that is all going to be irrelevant real soon. Let the survivors bicker over these moot points, if there are any left to squabble. The Others have awakened, and their army is shambling out of the far north, bent on destroying all life. Winter has come.

David C. Simmons, on 23 July 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Its almost like the North is returning to a more feral existence now that the Long Winter is coming. It could be that at the end that the Wildlings will outnumber the other northmen, if they dont already. The North needs people like the wildlings now, just like they new Rickon, the wild wold, and his Skagosi horde as well as tree decorations and Frey pies. The think Jon will become the new leader of the wildlings.

Yup, absolutely. Savage times are coming, and who will live through the long winter ? Those who know winter and savagery right down the their core - wildlings and the those among the north who remember the ancient ways. Perhaps too the hill tribes of the Vale, the Ironborn, and even the Dothraki.

Edited by Pod The Impaler, 23 July 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[Last of the Darklyns]

Despite arguments that Bolton is an old house, interesting history, etc., old houses get extinguished in wars as much as new ones do.  And to preserve the realism of the story, the warriors in the story couldn't care less about Bolton history, etc.


On a side note, giving the Dreadfort to House Thenn sounds like a great idea.