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How do you think Robert Arryn will die?


Les Berceaux

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Most likely it will be some accident and very possible he'll "fly" somehow. But poison or an acceleration of his illness could also work for Littlefinger.

I don't think he will see the Eyrie another time.

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The marriage could be annulled for another reason than Tyrion being dead: non-consummation. But I agree that this will not be in the interest of the Lannisters and as long as they control the 'Baratheon' who sits on the Iron Throne I am curious how and when Littlefinger thinks he can get away with marrying Sansa to someone else.

Annullment does not require that a party die. If Tyrion dies, then she's a widow and free to re-marry. If he lives, then Littlefinger needs to get an annullment for her to marry. Non-consummation will be the basis for the annullment, but for that to happen, she has to reveal herself and get the High Septon to agree to the annullment. Since she's currently believed to have played a part in killing Joffrey, she's not announcing herself anytime soon. So Sweetrobin gets to live for a while longer.

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Annullment does not require that a party die. If Tyrion dies, then she's a widow and free to re-marry. If he lives, then Littlefinger needs to get an annullment for her to marry. Non-consummation will be the basis for the annullment, but for that to happen, she has to reveal herself and get the High Septon to agree to the annullment. Since she's currently believed to have played a part in killing Joffrey, she's not announcing herself anytime soon. So Sweetrobin gets to live for a while longer.

I always wondered how this will work out.

We know that marriage consists of giving the bride to the House she marries into. Giving a bride to a house has to be taken very literally, it was part of a deal.

In this case Sansa (including her claim to Winterfell) was given to House Lannister.

She was given by Joffrey as her king, because there supposedly was no one left of House Stark to give her away.

So Sansa entered House Lannister.

If her husband dies, would Sansa automatically not be a part of House Lannister anymore and free to marry someone else? Or would the Lannisters or the King have a say in whom she could marry?

Without a power base, people with arms and influence, Sansa is not free to marry who she wants.

In our times this is very sad and maddening to think about,

I suppose the king or House Lannister would have to be asked if she was to marry Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir.

I remain curious how Littlefinger thinks he can get away with all those obstacles: her still being married to Tyrion, her being named in Joffrey's murder (ETA) and the claim to Winterfell she represents. Possibly that other marriage (Fake Arya) was his first step. And to get on topic again: I don't think he sees a role for Sweetrobin somewhere, other than dying conveniently :frown5: .

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I always wondered how this will work out.

We know that marriage consists of giving the bride to the House she marries into. Giving a bride to a house has to be taken very literally, it was part of a deal.

In this case Sansa (including her claim to Winterfell) was given to House Lannister.

She was given by Joffrey as her king, because there supposedly was no one left of House Stark to give her away.

So Sansa entered House Lannister.

If her husband dies, would Sansa automatically not be a part of House Lannister anymore and free to marry someone else? Or would the Lannisters or the King have a say in whom she could marry?

Without a power base, people with arms and influence, Sansa is not free to marry who she wants.

In our times this is very sad and maddening to think about,

I suppose the king or House Lannister would have to be asked if she was to marry Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir.

I remain curious how Littlefinger thinks he can get away with all those obstacles: her still being married to Tyrion, her being named in Joffrey's murder (ETA) and the claim to Winterfell she represents. Possibly that other marriage (Fake Arya) was his first step. And to get on topic again: I don't think he sees a role for Sweetrobin somewhere.

I think it will basically come down to this.

Those who wants Sansa to be married to the Lannisters will say that the marriage still stands since it was legally done and the High Septon has not annulled it.

Those who do not want Sansa to be married into the Lannister family will say that since the marriage was not consumated it will not be legal

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LF's cover for Sana is mere hair dye as Alayne. If he goes for a dissolution of marriage it would have to be after Sansa is revealed right?

I just wonder if word starts getting around that an appeal was made to the High Septon, Alayne's cover is blown or people even without seeing her start suspecting something.

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I think it will basically come down to this.

Those who wants Sansa to be married to the Lannisters will say that the marriage still stands since it was legally done and the High Septon has not annulled it.

Those who do not want Sansa to be married into the Lannister family will say that since the marriage was not consumated it will not be legal

True. The question remains, being a widow or freed because of annullment, is she still bound to House Lannister? ETA Or if she never entered House Lannister because the marriage is annulled, is the king still the one who has a say in who she marries again?

Or would this be (ugh) the Boltons, who are the closest thing to 'family' now that they hold Winterfell through Fake Arya?

Or whatever remains of the Tully's, being the House of her mother?

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True. The question remains, being a widow or freed because of annullment, is she still bound to House Lannister?

I'd say it will depend on herself and those close to her. I for example would exepect most Lannister to oppose any right to inherit and I don't think she wants anything to do with them anyway so it will probably come to nothing. But if someone, say the king/queen, really wants to force things in that direction there would probably be a legal avenue for it.

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I always wondered how this will work out.

We know that marriage consists of giving the bride to the House she marries into. Giving a bride to a house has to be taken very literally, it was part of a deal.

In this case Sansa (including her claim to Winterfell) was given to House Lannister.

She was given by Joffrey as her king, because there supposedly was no one left of House Stark to give her away.

So Sansa entered House Lannister.

If her husband dies, would Sansa automatically not be a part of House Lannister anymore and free to marry someone else? Or would the Lannisters or the King have a say in whom she could marry?

Without a power base, people with arms and influence, Sansa is not free to marry who she wants.

In our times this is very sad and maddening to think about,

I suppose the king or House Lannister would have to be asked if she was to marry Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir.

I remain curious how Littlefinger thinks he can get away with all those obstacles: her still being married to Tyrion, her being named in Joffrey's murder (ETA) and the claim to Winterfell she represents. Possibly that other marriage (Fake Arya) was his first step. And to get on topic again: I don't think he sees a role for Sweetrobin somewhere, other than dying conveniently :frown5: .

If the marriage is annulled, then House Lannister may not have any say in determining her subsequent marriage, because an annulled marriage, legally speaking, never happened.

As for Littlefinger's plan, I'm not sure this phase of his plan is fully thought out. After all, he mentioned to Sansa that he thought he would have four or five years to plant seeds. So I assume that he thought in those four or five years, Tyrion would die or Sansa could get the annullment. Now, he has to work much faster and that leads to opportunities for errors.

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What about the fallout of revealing Sansa. Definitely the Lannisters will want what serves them, banners and people loyal to the Starks will want to help Sansa. How does LF think he can maneuver through all this. Can't wrap my brain around all the things that can go right or wrong for LF, depending on his resources and who he can get to back him, and how he will convince them that it is in their benfit to do so, or that he holds the cards.

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I'd say it will depend on herself and those close to her. I for example would exepect most Lannister to oppose any right to inherit and I don't think she wants anything to do with them anyway so it will probably come to nothing. But if someone, say the king/queen, really wants to force things in that direction there would probably be a legal avenue for it.

There is another legal avenue, maybe.There are no Tully's left, so the closest thing to family for Sansa is ... Sweetrobin. And Littlefinger decides for Sweetrobin.

So yes, I think Sweetrobin is safe until the obstacles for marrying Sansa (ETA to another) are out of the way.

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What about the fallout of revealing Sansa. Definitely the Lannisters will want what serves them, banners and people loyal to the Starks will want to help Sansa. How does LF think he can maneuver through all this. Can't wrap my brain around all the things that can go right or wrong for LF, depending on his resources and who he can get to back him, and how he will convince them that it is in their benfit to do so, or that he holds the cards.

Littlefinger is planning on Cersei ruining the Lannisters, but as he told Sansa, he didn't think she would do it so quickly. With the Lannisters a spent force, a full Vale army, with parts of the Riverlands and the North would be very hard to stop. Of course, that's assuming that he actually wants Sansa to marry Harry the Heir.

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Given all the talk of his assumed death, I fully expect Sweet Robin to survive.

I just wonder if Bronze Yohn Royce will be strong enough to take Sweet Robin and foster him at Runestone? BYR seems the type, another honorable to a fault person. Obviously LF knows how to deal with those types, but I'm not sure GRRM will have him get away with it twice.

Wouldn't surprise me if one of the ways Sansa messes up LF's plan is by helping SR get our of LF's custody and into BYR's.

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