How do you think Robert Arryn will die?

[Cheese Pudding]

Great catch about LF knowing where Tysha is (or at least LF possible provide of a Fake Tysha). Kudos.

Concerning Sweet Robin, I really don't know what to think. I'm hoping for a rescue, Sansa somehow fleeing with him. But I believe he'll die, by poison.

And LF needs to go to KL to arrange the annulment, right?

[Robb Knightfrost]

I believe:

That if Tysha were to be brought into the light, it must almost certainly needs be the genuine Tysha. Remember we have Jamie still in play, he being the only one besides Cersei who knows what Tysha looks like. Since he is single-handedly(ha) clawing his way up to becoming an honorable man, it's becoming less likely he'd participate in the farce of a nonTysha.

Robert Arryn, insufferable little whelp that he is at present, will in the future benifit from a rescue by Sansa, healing at The Quiet Isle( which definiily has a part to play) and a fostering with someone worthy.

There is also a possibility he will be fostered with Rickon, that would benefit both boys, i think. Rickon needs to learn a bit of patience and Sweetrobin needs someone reletively his own age to interact with to learn how to be a "proper boy".(I can just see Rickon whapping little Rob upside his head for trying to be a little shit to him, maybe scaring him with Shaggy.) Whoever ends up fostering them until they are claimed will be gentle *and* stern. They could become as close as brothers( the way Robert and Ned became under Jon Arryn's fostering.)

Return of The Hound!! Will Sansa escape with little Robert to The Quiet Isle after a particularly violent 'episode'? Has Sandor Clegane been healing there for a while or just recently arrived? While they're both there will they meet, and Clegane become "Not the hero she wants, but the hero she needs. Nothing less than a knight"? Find out, next time...Kinda waxed Soap Opera. Sorry.

The only thing I am certain of is that Baelish's true goal is the Riverlands, at first anyway, then maybe the whole of The Seven Kingdoms. That, and that Tyrion must have a hand in his downfall. A Lannister always pays his debts.

[Kittykatknits]

I think this has been covered by the Tansy-story.

The tansy story would have happened long before Ser Sweetrobin was born. On their wedding night, Lysa says that this time she will not be quiet, implying that they have had some sort of ongoing relationship.

[The Other Others]

Who said LF couldn't have banged lysa later as it was mentioned that LF was in Gulltown for a while and moon tea doesn't have a 100% success rate although I may be clutching straws here on my theory.

[StarkWhite]

Sansa will be pushed over the edge by his insufferable whining and finally do something worthwhile by suffocating the little shit.

[FanTasy]

The tansy story would have happened long before Ser Sweetrobin was born. On their wedding night, Lysa says that this time she will not be quiet, implying that they have had some sort of ongoing relationship.

Possibly, but she could as well refer to what happened at Riverrun, before her marriage to Jon Arryn.

[Dr. Pepper]

So this crowd wants Petyr taken down by scandal before we ever get to see his endgame revealed? ...Okay.

His plotting has been slowly revealed throughout the series. I don't see any reason why more of his schemes wouldn't be revealed before and after he is taken down. I have a feeling that we aren't going to have LF spell out exactly what he was planning. Just like everything else, we'll have to piece it together for ourselves.

He's portrayed as a bad omen for the vale all around. mental and physical. he needed that 5 year fast forward gap during which he could have had a growth spurt to not be Steve Urkle with a scepter anymore. Now, he's got no time to turn things around. THe vale needs to dodge him somehow or else they'll watch their stock plummet. I don't know how to save him in a convincing manner that works out well for everyone, honestly. Their society doesn't have the safety net for SweetRobins that we do. Unless Sansa creates it, there's no scaffolding in place for someone like that to ever lead effectively.

At this age, Sweetrobin serves a function similar to the function Rickon will presumably serve. If he survives (which I assume he will), he'll be the 'banner' for the Vale, the Arryn in the Eyrie (or castles below). He has been the lord of the Vale and Warden of the East since book one. The problems in the Vale are not his doing, nor will future problems be his doing. Others speak for him as he's always had a regent and it will probably continue that way. Any problems with the Vale will stem from whomever is Lord Protector (at this point, LF). Robin has little to nothing to do with who's been placed in that position nor has he been taught anything about rule, which is not his fault. Like I said before, he had shitty parents and now has an even shittier stepfather.

He has also proven to not be a total fuck-up for life considering his temperament has somewhat improved since Sansa came on board. His toddler-like tantrums have become less frequent and less intense. It's pretty amazing that a 13-year old girl has been able to make these types of in-roads in his development. He's clearly moving on from the toddler stage and soon only his fragile health will be the minor concern.

[Booknerd2]

Wonderful insight today! Thanks so much, Lyanna Stark!

I love this and it really works well and pieces nicely.

I was even thinking too about Sansa and Robert Arryn making it to the QI.

In Book 2, the Hound offers to take Sansa away and she doesn't go. He regrets many things and even not being proactive enough to get her to go with him. Part of me even read it that he felt even taking her kicking and screaming was better for her than staying in KL with the monsters like Joff, and beinng married to Tyrion whom Sandor sure as hell knows she doesn't love.

It would be nice if Sansa goes to the QI. She will be going to Sandor this time, instead of the other way around.

And it would be damn cute. He may be on the QI but he still cares for her. He would be so suprised to see her.

And with all the fuss in 5 books with Sweetrobin being so sick, sickly, whatever, it would be a hoot if he toughs it out and makes it to the end and grows into a strong young man.

With a lot of work though and given time and circumstances.

[oliewankanobe]

Fly fly fly!!!

[Swordsaint]

Considering how bad his health is in the summer. Winter will probably kill him. A cold, some shivers, a drafty room, and one more of his spoiled brat fits. Good recipe for death for someone with a weak an undeveloped immune system.

[Kittykatknits]

Possibly, but she could as well refer to what happened at Riverrun, before her marriage to Jon Arryn.

Possible but they were together in KL for years and we know that LF had Llysa poison Jon so we know that they interacted.

[Booknerd2]

Well, this is something I always wondered. Did LF ever have relations with Lysa in KL? Possibly?

It would be very risky. Jon Arryn was alive, Cersei knows everything, hard to hide stuff from Varys, but I have learned that LF makes the impossible possible.

[brashcandy]

Well, this is something I always wondered. Did LF ever have relations with Lysa in KL? Possibly?

It would be very risky. Jon Arryn was alive, Cersei knows everything, hard to hide stuff from Varys, but I have learned that LF makes the impossible possible.

I think he did. When they're married she talks of finally being able to scream when he makes love to her.

[Booknerd2]

I was never sure if it was just the one time in the Vale when he "thought" she was Cat, but then that seemed too Captain Obvious because of course they were quiet or Hoster or others might have found them out.

Well, that was nuts. With Varys around and Cersei. Still can't believe they would even...unless she met him somewhere.

[femfatalatron]

However, regarding what the Vale people "deserve", I imagine that a couple of years in the EB's clutches and little Sweetrobin may emerged as something completely different, should he survive.

I actually do agree with you that this is the best case scenario, and it's interesting to see you plot a path by which this can happen. I guess the question is whether GRRM will *ever* let Westeros end up with a best case scenario. It'd be just like him to get Robert Arryn safely ensconced at the Quiet Isle, and then he dies of a chill. :\

He doesn't seem to understand the implications of his actions and like a toddler, he lacks empathy. That is very different from being sadistic. Empathy is a skill that is taught and takes several years to completely develop in a child.

I mean, yeah, developmentally and internally, lack of empathy is not the same as sadism (at least, a sadist has to understand other people's pain in order to enjoy it). Though I think that either way, making such a person absolute ruler over a bunch of people will be pretty terrible for those people. In that situation I care more about the external actions and their effects than the pscyhological reasons behind it.

I know others think he's improving with Sansa around, but I'm not really seeing it. Her policy towards him is one of appeasement right now -- just keeping him calm and placated. Teaching that kid empathy and leadership at this stage would involve quite a bit of confrontation and short-term unpleasantness. Until someone actually cares about him and expects him to have a future, it won't seem worth it. OK now I actually am starting to pity him, and hope he gets a chance, though while reading I'd always thought him a repulsive little brat. :)

If he were a real kid, of course I would wish him a better environment, a caring family, and good medical care. As characters in a novel, however, there is some appeal to seeing Sansa go evil. I really switch back and forth on a daily basis whether I want her to stay so moral or become totally ruthless, and I wonder if the answer to this isn't forshadowed by the death of Lady and her symbolic link to her Stark heritage. Either way I'm sure Sweetrobin will be set up as her litmus test.

[Ser_Patreck]

I mean, yeah, developmentally and internally, lack of empathy is not the same as sadism (at least, a sadist has to understand other people's pain in order to enjoy it). Though I think that either way, making such a person absolute ruler over a bunch of people will be pretty terrible for those people. In that situation I care more about the external actions and their effects than the pscyhological reasons behind it.

I know others think he's improving with Sansa around, but I'm not really seeing it. Her policy towards him is one of appeasement right now -- just keeping him calm and placated. Teaching that kid empathy and leadership at this stage would involve quite a bit of confrontation and short-term unpleasantness. Until someone actually cares about him and expects him to have a future, it won't seem worth it. OK now I actually am starting to pity him, and hope he gets a chance, though while reading I'd always thought him a repulsive little brat. :)

Littlerrobin is the absolute ruler of the Vale is the same way Tommen is the absolute ruler of the Kingdoms. Which is to mean - They aren't. Any problems with their "rule" can be attributed to their "stewards". Saying Littlerobin would be a bad ruler to the Vale is like saying Tommen would be a bad ruler to beet farmers.

[Zabuza]

EDIT: I feel like I need to consolidate my Grand Unified Littlefinger, Sansa, Sweetrobin and Tysha theory in one big post. :lol:

It also plays out San/San fufufu

[Wings]

I'm guessing that Robert will die because of an overdose of sweetsleep. He will ask for the sweetsleep, so no one really can be blamed. If they do, it will probably be the maester. I'd say Petyr would sacrifice Alayne so that Sansa can come back, but he needs her for something else. He is going to let Alayne marry Harrold Hardyng secure his position on the Vale of Arryn.

I don't think Petyr will be satisfied. He has Harrenhal, which was the seat of the king of the Riverlands and the Iron Islands. He now has the Valley of Arryn too and if he manages to secure his position through Alayne and Hardyng, he will find a way to keep it while letting Sansa regain her true identity, thus taking Winterfell and the north too. He will probably claim Sansa as his adoptive daughter or something like that to get this much power.

Petyr will be the new Tywin Lannister of Westeros - he will be the true ruler, whatever king is on the throne.

Before he gets that far, he will undoubtedly have something horrible happening to him, because we would all begrudgingly start to respect the man and maybe even like him. And we all know what Martin does to our favourite characters. :bawl:

Edit: typo.

[Khal Drogo's Mighty Thighs]

I think it would be great if Littlefinger arranges a marriage between Robert Arryn and Sansa Stark. Once they've married, and everyone is seated at the wedding feast, Robert Arryn suddenly begins choking and flapping around after drinking from his goblet. Sweetrobin collapses to the table, dead. Then there is a long silence, and Baelish looks extremely smug as he skulks in the corner, wringing his hands and chuckling. After what seems like an hour of silence as they stare at the body, everyone at the Feast just shuffles round in their seats and begins looking stonily at Littlefinger. And then, obviously, some ghetto chick from the Summer Isles stands up, one hand on her hip, the other pointing at Baelish as her head moves from side to side as she shouts "God daym it PETYR, AGAIN?"

Baelish, looking dejected, is marched off to the dungeons by the men of the Vale, as it was so obviously him again. Sansa becomes Queen of the Vale.

[carmela28]

I'm torn on whether it'd be best to have fake Tysh or real Tysh. Suddenly finding the real one would be really improbable, you know? Like a holy grail pulled out of Pete's ass. Unless he found and kept her YEARS AGO in preparation for gaining leverage over Tyrion!!!

Also, another faker pretending to be someone else would also seem like too much fakery at this point.

I'm very tired of the Tysha/"where do whores go" sub-plot. However, LF producing "Tysha" would be an interesting turn of events. I, too, am torn as to whether it would be best to have Fake Tysha or Real Tysha. Another pretender is a bit much.

He's portrayed as a bad omen for the vale all around. mental and physical. he needed that 5 year fast forward gap during which he could have had a growth spurt to not be Steve Urkle with a scepter anymore. Now, he's got no time to turn things around. THe vale needs to dodge him somehow or else they'll watch their stock plummet. I don't know how to save him in a convincing manner that works out well for everyone, honestly. Their society doesn't have the safety net for SweetRobins that we do. Unless Sansa creates it, there's no scaffolding in place for someone like that to ever lead effectively.

As he is currently exists, I don't see any way for Sweetrobin to become an effective and respected leader in the Vale. Sansa can only protect him for so long. Still, I would like him to live long enough to make a mess of LF's plans.