126 replies to this topic

[sumant30]

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I have a feeling that Cersei won't let them live

Edmure is heading to casterly rock.

[Ciazio]

sumant30, on 20 September 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Edmure is heading to casterly rock.

As a prisoner. And we both know that prisoners tend to be affected by the "falling head" syndrome.

[jarl the climber]

Ciazio, on 20 September 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

As a prisoner. And we both know that prisoners tend to be affected by the "falling head" syndrome.

The Lannisters through Ser Emmon control Riverrun. The Frey have a claim they could use to dispute this once Rosilins child is born, Edmure is an insurance policy of sorts for the Lannisters. As long as he is alive this child has no claim. If the child is a girl she could be married to Emmons grandkid and heir, Tion(Ser Cleos son). This happening would make Edmure less valuable to all parties. He won't be offed til the sex of Rosilins child is known. If its a boy all bets are off.

[gingerpunk]

Franz95, on 26 July 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

GRRM said more than once that there will be no new POVs, so it seems unlikely unless she's the prologue point of view. Besides, I actually belived she wasn't part of whatever the Westerling plot was. And she can't actually be pregnant: if she's actually the one Jaime meets she has narrow hips, if she ran off with the Blackfish swimming would have been quite hard for a pregnant woman. Unless the Blackfish is planning to get her pregnant himself and claim the child is Robb's (the Young Wolf had the Tully looks...) but it doesn't seem something Brynden would do. I hope she's safe and happy at the end of the series anyway, she was a good girl.

I started rereading ASOS and I just reached the chapter today where Catelyn comments in her thoughts that Jeyne Westerling has good hips for breeding, so, being reminded that Jaime specifically thought the opposite about the girl he saw, I'm tending to think it was not Jeyne. I believe there were other differences in his description as well, such as the girl he saw being kind of plain, and Jeyne being pretty. It is possible that Jeyne is carrying Robb's child.

[gingerpunk]

jarl the climber, on 20 September 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

The Lannisters through Ser Emmon control Riverrun. The Frey have a claim they could use to dispute this once Rosilins child is born, Edmure is an insurance policy of sorts for the Lannisters. As long as he is alive this child has no claim. If the child is a girl she could be married to Emmons grandkid and heir, Tion(Ser Cleos son). This happening would make Edmure less valuable to all parties. He won't be offed til the sex of Rosilins child is known. If its a boy all bets are off.

Tion Frey was one of the two kids Karstark killed, wasn't he?

[Lonely Wanderer]

gingerpunk, on 20 September 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

I started rereading ASOS and I just reached the chapter today where Catelyn comments in her thoughts that Jeyne Westerling has good hips for breeding, so, being reminded that Jaime specifically thought the opposite about the girl he saw, I'm tending to think it was not Jeyne. I believe there were other differences in his description as well, such as the girl he saw being kind of plain, and Jeyne being pretty. It is possible that Jeyne is carrying Robb's child.

You're not the first one to ponder the same. It's also questioned if Raynald Westerling died in the Red Wedding; he was hit my several bolts fired by Frey crossbowmen when he free'd Grey Wolf, and then he fell into the river.

[gingerpunk]

I have to add that I don't find it logical that the Westerlings were co-conspirators in The Red Wedding. I suppose there is a possibility, but I still find it improbable. I think Jeyne's mother is a bit of an opportunist, and probably sent the girl to "comfort" Robb when the North took their castle, but I don't see how she would've known Robb would break his word to Walder Frey and take the girl for his wife. It's more likely to me that the girl was sent to Robb to ensure the release of her father and better treatment for the Westerlings as prisoners. The Freys had left after Robb's word was broken, and negotiations were taking place between The Twins and Riverrun to another marriage arrangement between Roslin and Edmure, but I still don't see a messenger of the Freys sharing such a diabolical plot with the Westerlings at Riverrun. That would be too big a risk, IMO, to assume an ally when you're unsure where their loyalty lies. Also, I feel that if the Westerlings were conspirators, they probably would've claimed some credit when surrendering to the Lannisters.

The Red Wedding is also a huge taboo in Westeros, and tho the Boltons and Freys are insidious enough to ignore the protection afforded to guests, which the rest of the houses seem to hold quite sacred, it's kind of clear that even the Lannisters don't stoop so low. If the Lannisters would not infringe upon the rights of guests, why should we assume it of their bannermen, the Westerlings?

I do find it highly likely that the girl Jaime meets in ADWD is not Jeyne, especially after rereading Catelyn's description of Jeyne in ASOS. This leads me to think that either the girl was spirited away, possibly by the Blackfish, as suggested, or that Jeyne's mother is in on the conspiracy to hide her daughter from the Lannisters. Whether or not Jeyne is pregnant remains to be seen, but I don't see any other reason for the deception. If Jeyne is pregnant and bears a son, her son has a greater claim to Winterfell than even Bran and Rickon, who are both still presumed dead at this point. Her mother knows this,I'm sure. Also, given the relationship between the Westerlings and Cersei's doom prophecy, it's possible that she's playing both sides because she knows something more than she's stating.

This is all speculation on my part. I liked Robb and it would be nice for him to have left an heir, but I simply don't know. What I do know is that the descriptions of Jeyne from Catelyn and Jaime seem to infer that these are two different people. I don't see any reason at all for this deception unless Jeyne is indeed carrying Robb's child. Also, the idea that it was not Jeyne Sybelle presented to Jaime really would negate anything she says to him at that point because obviously she knows her own daughter, and, if this is not her daughter, why should anything she says be true?

[armidil0]

I think it's possible that jeyne has a baby on board, but I also don't like the idea, because wtf is up with Rickon then? jeyne played her part in hte story, she led the downfall of Robb, if she is to stay important, fine, but leave the North to the North.

[gingerpunk]

Well I suppose that's for GRRM to decide, but there are too many discrepencies between Jaime's description of Jeyne and Catelyn's for the girl Jaime met to have really been Robb's wife, and the only reason to bait and switch here is if Jeyne is with child.

[sumant30]

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The Red Wedding is also a huge taboo in Westeros, and tho the Boltons and Freys are insidious enough to ignore the protection afforded to guests, which the rest of the houses seem to hold quite sacred, it's kind of clear that even the Lannisters don't stoop so low. If the Lannisters would not infringe upon the rights of guests, why should we assume it of their bannermen, the Westerlings?

It is quite true because when bran and the reeds are holed up in night fort at that time meera tells bran that even gods don't forgive men who kill men under their own roof, so definitely guest right is considered is important in westeros.

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I think it's possible that jeyne has a baby on board, but I also don't like the idea, because wtf is up with Rickon then? jeyne played her part in hte story, she led the downfall of Robb, if she is to stay important, fine, but leave the North to the North.

Rickon will be rallying point for north and maybe he will sit in winterfell at the end of story as its lord.

[The Dragon has three heads]

For her to have been written out of the show and replaced with someone from volantis, she cannot be important enough for a POV.
Volantis was written in because its THE turning point on essos, when the volantene slaves rise-and they will-Dany will be queen of that city too.
Jeyne was replaced by a volantene surely with GRRMs ok as a way to introduce the city for later on.

[armidil0]

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Rickon will be rallying point for north and maybe he will sit in winterfell at the end of story as its lord.

But of Jeyne has a baby, rickon wont be the rallying, point, or the lord.

[gingerpunk]

The Dragon has three heads, on 22 September 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

For her to have been written out of the show and replaced with someone from volantis, she cannot be important enough for a POV.
Volantis was written in because its THE turning point on essos, when the volantene slaves rise-and they will-Dany will be queen of that city too.
Jeyne was replaced by a volantene surely with GRRMs ok as a way to introduce the city for later on.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think she'll have a POV either. I think she's only important for the child she carries, and I believe she's with child because I don't see any other reason for switching her with another girl when the Lannisters took Riverrun. The only other explanation for this would be GRRM forgot his former description of the girl when writing ADWD and I don't believe this could be the case.

armidil0, on 22 September 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

But of Jeyne has a baby, rickon wont be the rallying, point, or the lord.

I don't think Jeyne's baby will come so soon. How much time has passed between ASOS and ADWD. Rickon will still be the rallying point for the North, but his claim as lord will be disputed. Both Rickon and Robb's offspring would be too young to rule, anyway, so there's that matter, too. Also, who will be there to recognize the real Jeyne Westerling/Stark and confirm that the child is Robb's? If she is in the custody of Blackfish, it'd be him. After that, there's Edmure, who may be doomed, and Jeyne's own family. None of these people are going to stand up and make a claim for this child, IMO, until the country is no longer at war. If there was a deception, it went down in the interest of keeping the girl and her child safe, and I'm sure they mean for them to stay safe until Westeros is at peace again. So, I think Rickon will be the rallying point if Davos succeeds in recovering him. His claim as Lord of Winterfell may be contested, though. What if the child is female? I think she may still have a stronger claim than Rickon, but I'm not sure.

[Lonely Wanderer]

Didn't George say that TWoW will not have any new POV characters?

[sumant30]

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Didn't George say that TWoW will not have any new POV characters?

He did not say we will not have any new POV characters but he said that we will not be introduced to new characters.

[GoldenVale]

Damon_Tor, on 11 September 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

If J, Westerling was meant to have any signifigance post red wedding, I really doubt JRRM would have authorized the replacement for her character in the HBO series.  Just saying.

You're forgetting that GRRM has mentioned more than once that D&D and not him are the ones who have final say. While he is there in an advisory role and while he does write one episode per season they can do whatever they like. I think he said once as a joke (and I'm paraphrasing) that D&D could set the show on Mars if they wanted too.

gingerpunk, on 20 September 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

I started rereading ASOS and I just reached the chapter today where Catelyn comments in her thoughts that Jeyne Westerling has good hips for breeding, so, being reminded that Jaime specifically thought the opposite about the girl he saw, I'm tending to think it was not Jeyne. I believe there were other differences in his description as well, such as the girl he saw being kind of plain, and Jeyne being pretty. It is possible that Jeyne is carrying Robb's child.

At the point that Jaime saw her she was a grieving widow whose life was forfeit and could end in a quick beheading at any moment. It's not too hard to imagine her letting herself waste away a little. Also lets not forget that it still is two different views on the same person. What Catelyn counts as pretty might not be the same for Jaime.

Edited by GoldenVale, 09 October 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[gingerpunk]

GoldenVale, on 09 October 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

At the point that Jaime saw her she was a grieving widow whose life was forfeit and could end in a quick beheading at any moment. It's not too hard to imagine her letting herself waste away a little. Also lets not forget that it still is two different views on the same person. What Catelyn counts as pretty might not be the same for Jaime.

I understand what you're saying, the only problem is the specific mention of her hips. Catelyn mentions that her frame is good for childbirth while Jaime mentions narrow hips. While it's possible for someone to waste away in the grieving process, it's not possible for their bone structure to change. While I can agree that beauty is perceptual, this single discrepency is so specific that I can't help but think there's more to this than meets the eye.

[Westrosi]

sumant30, on 26 July 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

I don't think it would be so hard for a pregnant women to swim.

Maybe not in a twenty first century bathing suit or nekkid, but if she was in a westros era dress with brocade and vair, she'd be a gonner.  The weight would drag her down.

[Whiteknife]

Westrosi, on 11 October 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Maybe not in a twenty first century bathing suit or nekkid, but if she was in a westros era dress with brocade and vair, she'd be a gonner.  The weight would drag her down.

But it is also known for Women in Westeros to wear practicable clothing if needs be.

As a further aside on the topic: Wouldn't a possible child of Robb also have a claim on Riverrun via Catelyn if something "happened" to Edmure?

[The Duke of J-Town]

If Martin is consistent with how he's handled the character previously, we'll learn her fate secondhand in an extended paragraph where one character tells another character what happened to him and mentions that Jeyne was there.