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What if The Vale declared for Robb Stark?


Harty

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I was wondering this while re-reading the series. Supposing Catelyn managed to convince Lysa to declare for Robb as soon as he began to march south, do you think that would have made a significant difference in the war?

Personally, I do. This would give Robb all of the force of the Vale to fight in the Riverlands - with that extra force, he could push his armies into the Westerlands, while the Arryn armies either support that assault, or put pressure on the Crownlands.

How would it also affect the Ironborn rebellion? I'd have thought Robb would be able to spare some men, with Arryn aid, to march North and put down the rebellion.

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Robb would be strong enough to challange Tywin on the field or seize Harrenhal, he would be able to seize KL as well

You underestimate the might of the Lannisters and Tyrells combined. Vale is not that powerful imo, even Tyrion thought a sizeable number of his father's men would be enough to seize the Vale.

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Depends on when they joined. If Robb was at Riverrun or West, I imagine they'd have attacked Tywin at Harrenhal or perhaps gone straight on to King's Landing.

If Robb was still in the North or at the Twins, they'd go straight for King's Landing.

Bronze Yohn Royce, Lyn and Lyonel Corbray, the Redforts etc... this would have been (will be) an amazing army.

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You underestimate the might of the Lannisters and Tyrells combined. Vale is not that powerful imo, even Tyrion thought a sizeable number of his father's men would be enough to seize the Vale.

But at the begin of the war Tywin was alone, so there would be a chance, on the other site Robert won at the trident against the dornisch, Tyrells and crownlands with the north, the riverlords and the vale

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I was wondering this while re-reading the series. Supposing Catelyn managed to convince Lysa to declare for Robb as soon as he began to march south, do you think that would have made a significant difference in the war?

It most certainly would.

Personally, I do. This would give Robb all of the force of the Vale to fight in the Riverlands - with that extra force, he could push his armies into the Westerlands, while the Arryn armies either support that assault, or put pressure on the Crownlands.

Against three entire Houses even Tywin and Casterly Rock would have little chance and it would force the Lannisters to bargin with Robb for peace using Sansa as their trumph card to win a Status Quo. Possibly Robb would still be declared king.

How would it also affect the Ironborn rebellion? I'd have thought Robb would be able to spare some men, with Arryn aid, to march North and put down the rebellion.

He might march north but without ships he can't attack the Iron Islands and thus force peace. His only bet is that things develop as they do on the Iron Islands to get a new king who isn't interested in the North.

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I was wondering this while re-reading the series. Supposing Catelyn managed to convince Lysa to declare for Robb as soon as he began to march south, do you think that would have made a significant difference in the war?

Personally, I do. This would give Robb all of the force of the Vale to fight in the Riverlands - with that extra force, he could push his armies into the Westerlands, while the Arryn armies either support that assault, or put pressure on the Crownlands.

How would it also affect the Ironborn rebellion? I'd have thought Robb would be able to spare some men, with Arryn aid, to march North and put down the rebellion.

It would have been key for dealing with the ironborn because they could've taken ship from Gulltown to White Harbor and attacked Moat Cailin from the north.

Also(this might be wishful thinking), if Robb had the power of the Vale, he might not have tried so hard to win the Freys back. Or if he had the numbers, he could have taken the Twins back by force instead of diplomacy.

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Massively. The Vale is not only a source of manpower but also a close base of supllies for Robb. A lot of people forget that the Vale would have declared rebellion with Robb if Lysa hadnt been LFs. The Valemen have close ties with the Houses Stark and Tully.

The Vale is extremely fertile and i would think can raise in and around 30000 men if pushed. It is unlikely this many would march but certainly 15000-20000 is possible. The Knights of the Vale they are called over and over and so i would think they have a good reputation for cavalry. The Valemen marching can help Robb push Tywin into a position in which he either has to do battle or else sue for peace. Robb would also have enough men to hold the Riverlands and menace KL. His men would be better trained and led than Renlys so the greater manpower of the latter is negated.

Would Balon still be stupid enough to invade? Probably. But if Robb had said in his letter where he wished Balon to take Lannisport that 15000 Valemen led by Bronze Yohn were at that moment riding to join forces surely he has to reconsider

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Rob would have had sufficient force to defeat Tywin in the field. Assuming he was able to combine his host and beat Tywin (not necessarily a given). He would have had enough men to send an army to Golden Tooth and bottle up any Lannister relief forces and march on Kings Landing. Problem is that Renly Baratheon is also marching on Kings Landing with an even bigger host and Stannis has shadowbabies. Robb could have come to terms with Renly, but Stannis would problem just assassinate Rob with a shadow. Hard to predict counter-factual histories when magic is involved.

Also, Robb probably wouldn't have had to cut such a generous deal withe the Freys to secure passage at the Twins, if he had a Vale army moving into the Riverlands at the same time. I believe Walder would have been a bit more accomadating. Maybe a Frey husband for Arya and maybe wife for Rickon, but he probably wouldn't have had to marry into the family.
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The Vale, besides providing troops/supplies etc, would also have guarenteed Robb a possible stronghold to retreat to in case of need. He might then make his way North by ship, thus not having to rely on the Twins. In any case with the Vale, the Riverlands and the North Robb would have had a substantial strength. Too bad the Vale remained neutral.

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It would have made a massive difference, and I doubt with vale support the ironborn would invade the north. I doubt he would atttack kl, he would most likely just menace it. With the vale at his back he can lay siege to harrenhal. It would force tywin to attack him, do we know how much food they had? If after the ww the vale declared for him the lannisters would be forced into peace on his terms, if its after oxcross and the ironborn have not invaded the north, they can take on the tyrell forces who still have to deal with Stannis as well. If the ironborn have invaded the vale and riverlords must defend the riverlands while robb goes home to kick out the ironborn. I feel confident that with the vale robb survives.

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Also, with the Vale joining in, I don't think Robb makes the gamble of sending Theon back to Balon to ask for his support. Getting an Ironborn fleet to attack Lannisport is a lot less crucial in this scenario. Balon probably still decides to attack, but no Theon means no capture of Winterfell or Torrhen's Square. The Ironborn have only Moat Caitilin and Deepwood Motte. I think that's fairly recoverable.

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It really depends on when they joined in. Early on, they'd definitely be a game-breaker for Robb. If there was a Vale force marching west, I'm not sure Robb would have even gone to Riverrun, he could have just taken his main force, camped out in front of Tywin, and then either caught him as he retreated, or waited for an overwhelming force to pincer him.

Even if they failed to take Tywin prisoner, they could then march south, hit King's Landing from the north, and cut the head off the Lannister crown right then and there. Robb won every battle he ever fought, but he never had the power to push for the goal, and that's what allowed him to atrophy.

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Also, with the Vale joining in, I don't think Robb makes the gamble of sending Theon back to Balon to ask for his support. Getting an Ironborn fleet to attack Lannisport is a lot less crucial in this scenario. Balon probably still decides to attack, but no Theon means no capture of Winterfell or Torrhen's Square. The Ironborn have only Moat Caitilin and Deepwood Motte. I think that's fairly recoverable.

I aggree, with the vale he does not need the ironborn. So why bother sending theon back? If the vale helped robb the books would be kind of boring though, with the hero defeating the evil villains and marrying his true love or possibly marg.

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It really depends on when they joined in. Early on, they'd definitely be a game-breaker for Robb. If there was a Vale force marching west, I'm not sure Robb would have even gone to Riverrun, he could have just taken his main force, camped out in front of Tywin, and then either caught him as he retreated, or waited for an overwhelming force to pincer him.

Even if they failed to take Tywin prisoner, they could then march south, hit King's Landing from the north, and cut the head off the Lannister crown right then and there. Robb won every battle he ever fought, but he never had the power to push for the goal, and that's what allowed him to atrophy.

Yup, he knows riverunn can last a siege, so why not just let jaime break himself on the walls if you can take the main lannister strength? And if robb gets all his force to the green fork tywin would be forced to give battle, he would be smashed. A victory on the gf effectively ends the lannisters.

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Also, Robb probably wouldn't have had to cut such a generous deal withe the Freys to secure passage at the Twins, if he had a Vale army moving into the Riverlands at the same time. I believe Walder would have been a bit more accomadating. Maybe a Frey husband for Arya and maybe wife for Rickon, but he probably wouldn't have had to marry into the family.

again another misconception. the deal with the Frey will happen no matter how many troops are moving. Walder Frey knows that in order for Robb Stark to save his father he has to pass the Twins unharmed and right then and there. Sure they could go to war with him but at the cost of Ned Starks life. I'm sure the old dude knows Robb and Catelyn wouldn't risk it. The northmen are too "nice" to risk Ned's head.

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Yup, he knows riverunn can last a siege, so why not just let jaime break himself on the walls if you can take the main lannister strength? And if robb gets all his force to the green fork tywin would be forced to give battle, he would be smashed. A victory on the gf effectively ends the lannisters.

Well, technically Tywin could have fallen back to King's Landing at any time. But that would have meant the Lannister cause was good and done. King's Landing was already starving. Add tens of thousands of soldiers and they'd starve that much harder.

It would have given Robb an infinitely stronger bargaining position as well. He'd have Stannis (even with the soldiers he got from Renly) outnumbered, and it would definitely make him the deciding factor of any attack on King's Landing. He could deal with Stannis and support his claim, or become King of the North and marry Myrcella to secure peace with the 'Baratheon' dynasty (after killing Joffrey with his own two hands of course).

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again another misconception. the deal with the Frey will happen no matter how many troops are moving. Walder Frey knows that in order for Robb Stark to save his father he has to pass the Twins unharmed and right then and there. Sure they could go to war with him but at the cost of Ned Starks life. I'm sure the old dude knows Robb and Catelyn wouldn't risk it. The northmen are too "nice" to risk Ned's head.

Not really a misconception. If he had the Vale, he wouldn't have needed to go through Walder at all. He could have marched south and turned the Green Fork into a very different kind of battle. What's more, Walder Frey was waiting for the 'winning' side. He may have joined up with Robb regardless of conditions. The Vale coming into the fight doesn't just make this is a regular rebellion, it makes it Robert's Rebellion come again.

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Yup, he knows riverunn can last a siege, so why not just let jaime break himself on the walls if you can take the main lannister strength? And if robb gets all his force to the green fork tywin would be forced to give battle, he would be smashed. A victory on the gf effectively ends the lannisters.

Could RR have withstood assaults though? It seems a pretty strong castle but wer not sure how many men were defending the walls or what shape they were in

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I aggree, with the vale he does not need the ironborn. So why bother sending theon back? If the vale helped robb the books would be kind of boring though, with the hero defeating the evil villains and marrying his true love or possibly marg.

The Vale was never meant to help Robb. When the story was meant to be a trilogy Edmure doesn't fuck up, and Robb wins the TWOFK. I believe the Vale was always meant to come into play against the Others. My point of view comes from the fact that Lysa was batshit crazy since the beginning of the story.

ETA: I agree with you, if the Vale did to come Robb the hero wins and the story is over.

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