What if The Vale declared for Robb Stark?

[Harty]

Let's spice things up then.

Despite the bitterness between Dorne and the Lannisters, let's presume they secure an alliance with each other, through marital means or otherwise. Would this change things?

[Fat Mac]

I doubt Dorne would do anything but bother the Marcher Lords in the Stormlands. They aren't going to send their forces anywhere for any purpose. Doran is saving himself for the Targaryens and will probably make excuses to not send men.

[E-Ro]

Not, really the dornish fight better at home. They would have to march through the reach and this would piss of the tyrells who would most likely attack them. The most they could give would be 10,000.

[Naathi Prince]

The Vale declaring for Robb would have made a huge difference, it may have forstalled the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, and the Vale could have added another 25,000 swords to his cause (the Lords Declarant alone claim to be able to raise 14,000 swords easily), which makes Robb attacking KL possible. I also doubt that Balon Greyjoy picks attacking the North if they have the same alliance that Robert had. But the vale going to Robb would mean a three or four book series.

[The Snowman]

I doubt Dorne would do anything but bother the Marcher Lords in the Stormlands. They aren't going to send their forces anywhere for any purpose. Doran is saving himself for the Targaryens and will probably make excuses to not send men.

Its not if they would do it, he's asking what would happen if they did secure some form of an alliance.

I agree that it just wouldn't happen but if it did Dorne would have to mobilise but then they would either have to sail to KL and then to Tywin but also they couldn't go overland as they would either have to go through the Stormlands or the Reach both controlled by Renly. So even if Dorne raised 30 000 spears all Renly has to do is ask the Redwyne's and Hightowers to start attacking Dorne to put them in their place,

[E-Ro]

Rickard stark was very smart to make all these matches, the north, vale, and riverlands is simply overwhelming force that no one can stand against. Add the stormlords(who in this case are fighting them) and they are invincible.

[Naathi Prince]

Could RR have withstood assaults though? It seems a pretty strong castle but wer not sure how many men were defending the walls or what shape they were in

from the way its laid out in the books, Riverrun is nearly impossible to besiege because you have to divide your forces.

[The Snowman]

Plus he fostered Ned with the Lord of the Vale who just happened to be fostering the heir to the Stormlands. So not only did he make marriage contracts to the Riverlands and the Stormlands his 2nd son became like a son to the Lord of the Vale while creating a friendship that toppled a 300 year old dynasty. Of course he didn't plan the last part but still, he's a cool guy

[Batman]

You underestimate the might of the Lannisters and Tyrells combined. Vale is not that powerful imo, even Tyrion thought a sizeable number of his father's men would be enough to seize the Vale.

One of the few instances where Tyrion has been very wrong. The Vale is one of the most difficult Kingdoms to attack. He would need ships to take the Vale, the way the Andals did. A Lannister army would not get past the bloody gates and the Lannister fleet is only roughly 24 warships and they are in Lannisport. They would need the Redwyne fleet.

[E-Ro]

One of the few instances where Tyrion has been very wrong. The Vale is one of the most difficult Kingdoms to attack. He would need ships to take the Vale, the way the Andals did. A Lannister army would not get past the bloody gates and the Lannister fleet is only roughly 24 warships and they are in Lannisport. They would need the Redwyne fleet.

Yup, if the lannisters attacked the vale it would be the end of them, Tywin would never do this, it would be the end of house lannister.

[the goodyear imp]

The Eyrie declaring for Robb would also have most likely given pause to the Tyrells as far as making an alliance in the first place. Sunspear as well possibly. The Vale's allegiance would have been pretty huge deal in the war

[The Bread Viper]

You underestimate the might of the Lannisters and Tyrells combined. Vale is not that powerful imo, even Tyrion thought a sizeable number of his father's men would be enough to seize the Vale.

But if the Vale declares for Robb do the Tyrells get into bed with the Lannisters? It's only after the death of Renly that they throw in with them. Also with the vale on their side does Robb send Cat to treat with Renly and bring about her association with his death?

[Ser Areo Mace]

But if the Vale declares for Robb do the Tyrells get into bed with the Lannisters? It's only after the death of Renly that they throw in with them. Also with the vale on their side does Robb send Cat to treat with Renly and bring about her association with his death?

If he's smart he would still send her. An alliance with Renly's force gives him a hugh advantage in the war

[Frey Pie]

Robb may declare a truce with Renly in which they stay out of eachothers way but he wouldnt become allies with him. This would be the smart thing to do but Robb is Neds son and knows Renly has no right to the throne. As King of a seperate country though Robb would neither support Renly or Stannis, except perhaps if Stannis acknowledged him and his sovereignty over the North, Riverlands and Vale

[Winterfell is Burning]

If Tywin is in Harrenhal when the Vale joins the fight, then he's stuck between enemy forces in his North, West and East, with the God's Eye at this South. Game over for him. Even the Tyrells would never support him in this position.

The real conflict would between Renly or Stannis vs Robb.

[Rheagar Prime]

i see him doing alot better until the RW happens cause we all know hewould have still married JW and gone to walder frey sigh for god knows why.

[Pod The Impaler]

I was wondering this while re-reading the series. Supposing Catelyn managed to convince Lysa to declare for Robb as soon as he began to march south, do you think that would have made a significant difference in the war?

Personally, I do. This would give Robb all of the force of the Vale to fight in the Riverlands - with that extra force, he could push his armies into the Westerlands, while the Arryn armies either support that assault, or put pressure on the Crownlands.

How would it also affect the Ironborn rebellion? I'd have thought Robb would be able to spare some men, with Arryn aid, to march North and put down the rebellion.

I think given what we know about the conflict's cause now, such a mobilization was unlikely, but it would have made a huge difference.

But for sake of argument, let's say LF pushes Lysa to join instead of stay out...

If it was that early on, it also would have meant Robb might not have needed to make a deal to cross the Twins. The Blackfish would also probably command all the Vale knights who know him quite well. The northmen can now probably link up with Dragonstone by sea with little effort needed - if that was the case.

3 major regions (north, riverlands, vale) against the Iron Throne, instead of three? These are the same three that took on the Targaryens and won. This time around, the Stormlands and Reach would be supporting Stannis and/or Renly, not the Lannister crown.

Dorne would also be free to attack the Westerlands, killing as many Lannisters as possible in vengeance for Elia - no caution needed. They might do so with the Ironborn's aid. Balon Greyjoy would also be making a different calculation in regard to who will win the war, and perhaps see the Rock as more easy pickings than the North.

Also, keep in mind, the Lannister side would see this too. Tywin would perhaps sue for peace rather than see the Lannisters dismembered by basically everyone else

Question is again WHEN does the Vale join ? (Right down to the day.)

If they join in when Eddard Stark is still alive, the Lannisters could still walk away from the throne and not get crushed militarily. They might release Eddard Stark. They'd have some sort of trial over Jon Arryn's death, and maybe even sacrifice Tyrion to get away with larger things. Problem is, if Eddard lives, he and Stannis declare Joffrey et. al. bastards. Stannis becomes king on the Iron Throne, likely with someone like Eddard Stark or Edmure Tully as Hand. Robert's bastards might be recognized as his, but in all likelihood, Renly becomes lord of the Stormlands. Purge of Lannisters in King's Landing.; Dorne may demand the heads of Clegane, Lorch, and likely poison Tywin later on. The line of Tywin (Cersei, Jaime, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella) would probably come to an ignomonious end, but Kevan his heirs would survive and carry on the Lannister name.

If the Vale joined after Eddard's execution, and Robb becomes "King In The North" with the Vale also following his crown, then Robb Stark pretty much wins the war (barring black magic and poisonings). The Lannisters would be dismembered by the three armies they face, and it's less likely that the Ironborn save their ass by attacking the North. (More to the point, the northmen would not need to leave it so undefended). Stannis and Renly - well they would still resent losing the northern half of the seven kingdoms, but even if they seize the capital from the Lannisters, they then fight each other for dominance and deplete their strength. Even combined by shadow assasination, they would have the power of the Stormlands and Reach, but not the Westerlands and likely not Dorne. They's have more populous areas, but against the new northern kingdom, it would likely be a stalemate for at least a decade without the westerlands or Dorne to join them.

(What would Dorne do ? They would never help the Lannisters, they have some antipathy towards the Tyrells and Baratheons anyway. So they might even cast their lot with Robb, for the promise of a royal marriage and death to Tywin Lannister, Amory Lorch, and Gregor Clegane. Then Robb becomes not only King In The North, but all of Westeros. Stannis would likely try to fight, and lose, but Renly would be more practical.)

The middle scenario is what would happen if the Vale joined Robb, after Ned Stark's execution, but before / without Robb being declared King in the North (let's say the Vale talks him out of it). This is the scenario that creates the worst outcome for the Lannisters. They have already burnt their bridges with the North for executing Ned - peace is now impossible. Their enemies unite under either Stannis or Renly. Most likely Stannis, considering Robb's sentiments. (Renly was willing to make his play for the crown versus a Stannis who had close to zero allies; not Stannis with three of seven kingdoms behind him.) Either way, the Lannisters arre headed for a fall, but this time a much bloodier military one. Cersei and Jaime die for treason against King robert; Joffrey for the murder of Eddard Stark and his retinue; Tywin Lannister, Gregor Clegane, and Amory Lorch for the deaths of Elia and her children. Myrcella and Tommen may lbuy their lives, but only with the release of Sansa and Arya unharmed (oops!). Tyrion might even be sent to the wall, despite winning his trial in the Vale. More then likely, the Lannister armies are slaughtered in battle and the westerlands horribly plundered to pay threefold for the despoiling of the Riverlands and their other crimes.

All that from Robb rallying one more of the Seven kingdoms to his side.

Too easy. Hence the story going as it did - the Vale staying out and driving readers absolutely crazy.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I am not going to do the whole long essay on this but No not really. Rob was fighting a offensive type war, when what his stated goal was to hold the Riverlands and the North. It would not have worked.

If his goal was to take the Iron throne, then his type of war, with the Vale could have worked.

Had he fought a defensive war the Vale would have really help and prolonged the war, but Riverlands are too wide open, and could not be held. That is the reason they often changed hands.

[E-Ro]

I am not going to do the whole long essay on this but No not really. Rob was fighting a offensive type war, when what his stated goal was to hold the Riverlands and the North. It would not have worked.

um, if he has the vale he can leave them in the riverlands to defend it while he goes west to burn tywins land. Im not sure what your point is, more men is always good no matter what type of war you are fighting.

[Winterfell is Burning]

um, if he has the vale he can leave them in the riverlands to defend it while he goes west to burn tywins land. Im not sure what your point is, more men is always good no matter what type of war you are fighting.

Yes, and, again, if the Vale joins, them Tywin is stuck in Harrenhal with no way of getting out.