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[Lummel]

Ladies, Gentlemen and esteemed representatives of the older races,

Welcome to Learning to lead III.

This project aims through a re-read of the Dany and Jon chapters in ADWD with a view to comparing them as leaders, examining the kinds of challenges they face, how they attempt to deal with them and looking at the common patterns, themes and events that both have to deal with to reevaluate them and open up this part of ADWD to further discussion beyond the topics and ideas frequently found on the board. We are not expecting to see who is 'best' or does better as a leader but to try and see the similarities and differences in their situations and leadership styles and to examine the parallels and contrasts of their storylines in ADWD.

The re-readings are done by Butterbumps!, Dr Pepper and myself with the largely honest intention of posting two chapters a week.  We aren't following the book order but have been alternating between the Daenerys and Jon chapters, however because Jon (such a lucky lad) gets more chapters than Daenerys we have also looked at Melisandre's POV chapter and will be taking on the Barristan and Quentyn chapters after Daenerys IX.  In addition we have been posting summaries of the storyline with some of the interesting ideas and interpretations that have come out of the discussion to help anyone who is interested to keep abreast of the reread.

The reread began here, continued here and now seeks to reread what no White Walker or coat-turning sellsword hath ever reread before...

All lurkers welcome and posters received warmly, we have just started a discussion of Dany VIII.

[Blisscraft]

"If I look back I am lost. . . "  Dany is a bit like Scarlet O'Hara and her theme "I'll think about that tomorrow."  What is present and as DP so artfully put it, "in her face" is Dany's failure to complete her goal to abolish the slave trade.  The Yunkai'i, at Hidahr's invitation, really lay it on thick.  The food is more than exotic, it's DOG four ways!  And to Dany's mind it doesn't taste of chicken; it tastes of defeat.  The Yunkai'i are "permitting" trade to resume.  Dany knows this could end whenever the Yunkai'i change their minds, but Hizdahr is confident they won't.

The entertainment is another means of mocking Dany.  First, the singers are castrati.  Perhaps a suggestion that Dany has "no balls?"  Next, more obvious to Dany, the "little girl" atop the pyramid is no threat, a light weight, so to speak.

Dany recognizes she cannot trust sellswords, the slavers, her husband, Daario.  But she still relies upon GG and Barry.  GG is the reason she's married to Hizdahr and Barry isn't meant to play the game of thrones.  Littlefinger and the Spider (Varys) are the ones who understand assassination and intrigue.  Not Barry.  Dany sees him as too honorable to stoop so low.  However, she is learning that she needs to play the game better.  It's really too bad at this point that BB's "gift" (Tyrion) is unobtainable.  Dany could use some skilled labor at playing the game.

As for Quentyn, he doesn't know how to play the game any better than Dany (or Eddard Stark).  Dany takes him down to see the dragons.  (It's funny that she tells her hand maids that if Hizdahr inquires as to her whereabouts she's "answering a call of nature.").  It's a long walk down.  The hawk and the fish are following.  A soul of the air; a soul of the water.  One above the surface; one below.  Viserion has freed himself from his chains.  However, he hangs like a white bat, not a dragon.  Rhaegal is still partially bound.  Dany wonders if they can tunnel their way to freedom, maybe like the Astapori freedmen that escaped through the bricks.  Quentyn is terrified.  Dany is too.  This is what fire and blood look like.  This is the price of leadership.  It is very scary.  Even in her dreams, after Missandei lulls her to sleep with butterfly stories, Dany dreams of smoke and fire.  Dany shouldn't put off who she is.  Dany needs to heed her inner dragon.

[tze]

Again we hear mention of a feud between Loraq and Kandaq (Dany mentions it when thinking about how Hizdahr replaced the Shavepate with his cousin). Dany doesn't really seem to care why the two families hate each other. This could be a Blackwood/Bracken type of feud or a Stark/Lannister type of feud----or hell, maybe it's a Frey/everybody type of feud! I mean, logically a ruler would interact differently with the feuding parties depending on the various parties' actions instigating and carrying out the feud, but Dany still has no idea what the source of the feud is in the first place. Did Hizdahr rape the Shavepate's sister? Did the Shavepate murder Hizdahr's father? Are the two families feuding because of a fight their ancestors instigated centuries beforehand? The fact that Dany never bothers to even ask why the two men hate each other doesn't fill me with confidence for how she'll deal with the incredibly complex feuding families of Westeros.

Dany berates Brown Ben for his treachery, then asks Barristan if any of the Yunkish sellswords will betray Yunkai to join her. When Barristan says that sellswords are treacherous, Dany lectures him that she wants them to be treacherous, because if they weren't, the Second Sons/Stormcrows wouldn't have joined her in the first place. But . . . treacherous sellswords will betray her just as easily as Yunkai! Did she miss the whole point of Brown Ben's lecture (that sellswords want to survive more than they want gold)? I wonder if that whole conversation went entirely over her head, because if she'd really taken Brown Ben's words to heart, she'd understand that she'd need some sort of "fighting edge" to entice the sellswords to join her (last time she had the dragons, which aren't an option anymore), and that merely offering them money isn't going to work for the same reason Brown Ben switched sides in the first place---the sellswords see Dany as a losing cause. Does she have anything new to challenge that notion? Not that I can see. And Brown Ben flat-out told her that the Second Sons as a whole voted to go over to Yunkai, so why on earth does she act like convincing another sellsword to "remove" Brown Ben from command would have any impact on the Second Sons' choice of employer? I really don't think she understands the whole sellsword issue, and Brown Ben's place in it, at all.

It's interesting to see here the huge discrepancy between what the slaves think Dany will do and what we know Dany has just done. Tyrion is told

Quote

Daenerys Targaryen was wed, the guards on the pens had told them, laughing. She had taken a Meereenese slaver as her king, as wealthy as he was noble, and when the peace was signed and sealed the fighting pits of Meereen would open once again. Other slaves insisted that the guards were lying, that Daenerys Targaryen would never make peace with slavers.

Except she just did exactly that. So much is made of the high regard the slaves hold for Dany, but it seems to me that the slaves love some idealized version of a heroine that they simply assume Dany epitomizes---they don't really love Dany. They love the conqueroring heroine who they think is planning on saving them all. But that's never been Dany's plan.

Dany's contempt for Quentyn is palpable throughout this chapter, though I don't think she admits to herself that what she's feeling is contempt. She again thinks to herself about how Quentyn is not a handsome man, she assumes that he's useless because he didn't physically bring her an army or a fleet and isn't cheering on the hellish monsters she brings him to see, she remarks to herself how plainly dressed he is, and when he jumps back upon hearing Rhaegal and Viserion roar, Dany thinks that "A crueler woman might have laughed at that." The very fact that she assumes someone might laugh at Quentyn for jumping back at this hellish display . . . it says far more about Dany than it does about Quentyn. And it's interesting how she warns Quentyn of his enemies at her court, she says Hizdahr is dangerous in large part because he "commands the allegiance of some of the most fearsome fighters in the world." Presumably she's referring to the pit fighters (given that the Unsullied don't follow Hizdahr, they follow Dany----though to be fair, does Dany realize that?) Quentyn is dismissive of "slaves and sellswords", and Dany thinks he's a fool for that---but how did one of the greatest pit fighters alive, Khrazz, end up faring against Ser Barristan, who let's be honest, is a senior citizen? How would Daario have really fared against Quentyn himself? We'll never know, but I wonder.

Dany very casually thinks about how she knows "little and less about Dorne or its history", one more piece of evidence that Dorne will likely play havoc with an attempted conquest of Westeros. Dany has never heard of the Water Gardens, and according to Doran, the lesson of the Water Gardens is that a ruler does not make war unless he/she knows he/she can win, for in war, it's always the children who suffer. What are the implications of the fact that Dany doesn't know about the Water Gardens? She attacked Meereen in part because of what was done to the crucified children, but how many innocent children died during the sack of Meereen? How many will die if Dany seeks the Iron Throne?

And the fact that she has to ask Quentyn "Tell me of this other Daenerys" heavily implies that she doesn't know the history of her namesake. The whole reason the first Daenerys married a Dornish Prince was because the Young Dragon couldn't hold Dorne---that Dorne is essentially unconquerable. Does Dany know that? I think there's an excellent chance she doesn't.

One of the interesting things that popped out here was the difference between Dany's understanding of Nymeria's landing and Arianne Martell's understanding of Nymeria's landing. Dany recites the story as this:

Quote

Nymeria had landed ten thousand ships upon Dorne’s sandy shores, but when she wed her Dornish prince she had burned them all and turned her back upon the sea forever.

Arianne, however, added some crucial details back in AFFC:

Quote

Nymeria’s blood is in me, along with that of Mors Martell, the Dornish lord she married. On the day they wed, Nymeria fired her ships, so her people would understand that there could be no going back. Most were glad to see those flames, for their voyagings had been long and terrible before they came to Dorne, and many and more had been lost to storm, disease, and slavery. There were a few who mourned, however. They did not love this dry red land or its seven-faced god, so they clung to their old ways, hammered boats together from the hulks of the burned ships, and became the orphans of the Greenblood.

Arianne tells Myrcella why Nymeria burned her ships: not because the Dornish were once a seagoing people and suddenly wanted to stop that way of life, but because Dorne was such a difficult place to live, and its preexisting customs/religion so different from what the Rhoynar knew, that Nymeria had to ensure that her people knew they could not leave and try for greener pastures (or try to return to the Rhoyne). Dany does not seem to understand this idea---she's constantly doing the exact opposite of this, as she tells people that she's definitely leaving Meereen one day (she told both Quentyn and Hizdahr this) and even when she considers the idea of never leaving Meereen, she still never stops calling herself the Queen of Westeros. There's a difference between "looking back" (which Dany refuses to do, and the Rhoynar did do) and "going back" (which Dany wants to do, and Nymeria expressly did not want to do). Meereen's ways are as different to Dany as Dorne's ways must have been to Nymeria, but Nymeria forged a compromise and made a new home for her people. Dany, deep down, does not want to do this---she rails against integration with Meereenese society and she clearly begrudges every step she's forced to take. And then there's the fact that some of the Rhoynar kept their old customs, rebuilt the ships (after a fashion) and did their best to re-capture their old way of life on the Rhoyne. Dany never mentions (and probably doesn't know about) the orphans of the Greenblood---she repeats her "If I look back, I am lost" mantra where the Rhoynar clearly looked back (at the Rhoyne) and still managed to integrate that Rhoynish past into their future on the Greenblood.

Interesting that Dany thinks of Dorne only as having "sandy shores" while Arianne specifically points out Dorne as a "dry red land". Does Dany even realize the Dorne is covered in deserts?

Quote

The Yunkish Supreme Commander, Yurkhaz zo Yunzak, might have been alive during Aegon’s Conquest, to judge by his appearance. Bent-backed, wrinkled, and toothless, he was carried to the table by two strapping slaves. The other Yunkish lords were hardly more impressive. One was small and stunted, though the slave soldiers who attended him were grotesquely tall and thin. The third was young, fit, and dashing, but so drunk that Dany could scarce understand a word he said. How could I have been brought to this pass by creatures such as these?

Yes, how did this happen?? We can infer that in addition to Yurkhaz, Dany's dining with the Little Pigeon and the Drunken Conqueror. We know from Tyrion's POV and Quentyn's POV that the non-sellsword Yunkish forces are quite literally a joke. What, did Daario never mention seeing the slaves on stilts during one of his "sorties"? It all seems to come back to the "know your enemy" idea; where Jon does his best to learn about his enemies (the wildlings and the Others), Dany clearly took no steps to learn about the true martial capacities of Yunkai.

[Lummel]

I also like that reference to the rivalry between the families of the Shavepate and Hizdahr/The Green Grace - it really throws for the first time the Shavepate's policy advice not to trust Hizdahr, to torture him, to suspect him of being the Harpy into a new perspective.

The Shavepate is a character who just appears in ADWD.  If you go back to the last Daenerys chapter in ASOS there is no mention of him (or Reznak either) and until that moment in Dany VIII it was unclear why he cut his hair and sided with Daenerys.  Clearly now it was in pursuit of his conflict with the Loraq.

This ties in with the comparison between The Ned and Daenerys made in the previous thread (starts here).  Although both The Ned and Daenerys have executive authority and full access to the trappings of power they find themselves in a dynamic environment in which others already have determined the rules of the game and for whom this latest leader is just somebody else to use, or work round to achieve their own objectives.  Perhaps the point of Dany VIII is that we finally can see how little freedom of action Daenerys actually had and how much of what transpired to set the political agenda in Meereen was the result of the power struggle between the Loraq and the Kandaq?

Maybe we can say something similar about the situation at the Wall.  We've been comparing the Wildlings and the freed slaves for a while, but the consensus, it seemed to me, coming out of the discussion around Jon VIII was that the senior officers of the Watch were like the Meereenese elite in that they would be opposed to the leader no what what they did and that attempts to compromise would be worthless.

Is this a lesson that we are comfortable with - that there has to be a more thorough destruction of the old order before a new world can come into being, that attempts to work within the established order will inevitably be compromised, flawed or end in failure?

This is I think Daenerys' lowest point.  She has been completely manipulated into selling out on her principles - although her path to that point seems to be an entirely consistent, reasonable and well intentioned one.

Edited by Lummel, 26 July 2012 - 02:35 PM.

[Blisscraft]

I agree this is Dany's lowest point and that the path that leads her to it is consistent, reasonable and well intentioned.    That's why I threw Ned into the mix for a comparison.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  The "old" order is entrenched, recalcitrant and inflexible.  GRRM is of a generation who rebelled against the existing societal restraints.  It was/is/will be difficult to change.  His characters like Ned, Jon, and Dany all struggle with the existing powers and even with power of their own each uses restraint, compassion and mercy to their detriment.

Rome wasn't built in a day.  And yet, GRRM's world is filled with past events that excelerated the pace (the Doom, for example) and caused tremenduous and catastrophic change.   Ned, certainly didn't seem to have the personal power (something magic) to cause such change and yet, had he disclosed what he discovered, knew, his information, the Lannisters would have fallen and perhaps greater chaos would have ensued.  Jon, ever has his eyes on the prize "protecting the realms of men" and yet he ignores his personal power (to warg) which could give him the eyes he needs at and beyond the Wall.  Dany captured two of her dragons and enslaved them in chains to protect her other "children."   A reckoning is coming as sure as Winter.  It is too late for Ned.   Jon and Dany are still in the learning curve.

[just an Other]

I don't think the Shavepate hates Hizdar. He is a brutal, ruthless and ambitious man who hates all of the Meereenese elite who outrank him. He found his opportunity to increase his power by attaching himself to the foreign conqueror, adopting the very image of the traitor amongst his people and jealously guards his new found power with the secret police he has formed. His rivalry with Hizdar stems from that. The latter is enroaching on Skahaz's source of power which Skahaz off course will not tolerate.

[just an Other]

Blisscraft, on 26 July 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

  Jon and Dany are still in the learning curve.

But what is it that they are learning? I have a feeling that WOW and beyond are going to make ASOS look like a bar brawl.

[Winter's Knight]

just an Other, on 26 July 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

But what is it that they are learning? I have a feeling that WOW and beyond are going to make ASOS look like a bar brawl.

Their limits.They are learning that making omelettes requires the breaking of eggs, that you cannot please all the people all the time and that when necessary, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Most of all though, they are learning that building a new order cannot occur without spilling some blood.

[kg1982]

just an Other, on 26 July 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

I don't think the Shavepate hates Hizdar. He is a brutal, ruthless and ambitious man who hates all of the Meereenese elite who outrank him. He found his opportunity to increase his power by attaching himself to the foreign conqueror, adopting the very image of the traitor amongst his people and jealously guards his new found power with the secret police he has formed. His rivalry with Hizdar stems from that. The latter is enroaching on Skahaz's source of power which Skahaz off course will not tolerate.

So basically Skahaz is the Littlefinger of Meereen?  That puts his actions in quite a perspective.  It is a very Littlefinger like game he's playing.

[just an Other]

kg1982, on 26 July 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

So basically Skahaz is the Littlefinger of Meereen?  That puts his actions in quite a perspective.  It is a very Littlefinger like game he's playing.

How did you get Littlefinger from what I wrote? He reminds of the people that collaborated with the Nazis in countries that were occupied during WW2 and often did their dirty work. (No, I am not comparing Dany to Hitler.)

[The Snow King]

Lummel, on 26 July 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Is this a lesson that we are comfortable with - that there has to be a more thorough destruction of the old order before a new world can come into being, that attempts to work within the established order will inevitably be compromised, flawed or end in failure?

Yes, I think it is, at least in part. Particularly in a feudal system that is inherently unfair and has no institutions that allow the general public to control those in power. Maybe complete destruction is not needed, but as someone noticed, breaking some eggs is needed. It is more visible in Jon chapters, though. His officers do not respect him, disagree with his decisions and want to push NW into other direction. Jon tries to deal with it like Ned would, and gets some daggers for his trouble. I think he had other choices.
He could for example pull a Tywin, consolidate his power base, execute the leaders of the opposition and show that no dissent will be tolerated. Although I admit it would probably now work. What could work is trying to things the Tyrion way: by threats, bribes and assassination  when needed. Particularly, the constantly drunk and unagreeable septon is a good candidate for unfortunate accident or fatal binge, Yarwyck is weak-minded and could probably be bought off with some promises, and without support Marsh could be easily threatened. And I am pretty certain could make it work. Will be a direction into which Jon is heading? We will see, I suppose.

It is harder to find a reasonable solution for Dany. Jon at least knows the people and customs, while Dany is a complete stranger in Mereen, without even a reliable source of information about it. She's really cornered there.

[Ice Turtle]

Small note about Dany and dragons. Dany chains her dragons to protect her human "children" but dragons are source of her power so she is finding herself powerless and failing in her intention in the end.

[kg1982]

just an Other, on 26 July 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

How did you get Littlefinger from what I wrote? He reminds of the people that collaborated with the Nazis in countries that were occupied during WW2 and often did their dirty work. (No, I am not comparing Dany to Hitler.)

The fact that Shavepate isn't a high ranking noble in Meereen and is using Dany to get what he wants, namely advancement in Meereenese society.  That definitely sounds like a certain person we know from Westros?? Many people have speculated that Littlefinger might change alliances and try to get in with Faegon and the Golden Company.  Yes, it is similar to the collaborators, but I think that both Shavepates and Littlefinger are better at playing the game.

[just an Other]

kg1982, on 26 July 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

The fact that Shavepate isn't a high ranking noble in Meereen and is using Dany to get what he wants, namely advancement in Meereenese society.  That definitely sounds like a certain person we know from Westros?? Many people have speculated that Littlefinger might change alliances and try to get in with Faegon and the Golden Company.  Yes, it is similar to the collaborators, but I think that both Shavepates and Littlefinger are better at playing the game.

Well, their methods are very different and I think Skahaz is actually loyal to Dany, because all his power stems from her.

[Ice Turtle]

The Snow King, on 26 July 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Yes, I think it is, at least in part. Particularly in a feudal system that is inherently unfair and has no institutions that allow the general public to control those in power. Maybe complete destruction is not needed, but as someone noticed, breaking some eggs is needed. It is more visible in Jon chapters, though. His officers do not respect him, disagree with his decisions and want to push NW into other direction. Jon tries to deal with it like Ned would, and gets some daggers for his trouble. I think he had other choices.
He could for example pull a Tywin, consolidate his power base, execute the leaders of the opposition and show that no dissent will be tolerated. Although I admit it would probably now work. What could work is trying to things the Tyrion way: by threats, bribes and assassination  when needed. Particularly, the constantly drunk and unagreeable septon is a good candidate for unfortunate accident or fatal binge, Yarwyck is weak-minded and could probably be bought off with some promises, and without support Marsh could be easily threatened. And I am pretty certain could make it work. Will be a direction into which Jon is heading? We will see, I suppose.

It is harder to find a reasonable solution for Dany. Jon at least knows the people and customs, while Dany is a complete stranger in Mereen, without even a reliable source of information about it. She's really cornered there.

I actually think he should give up part of his power and make something like council (five or ten officers to represent fractions of the Watch) for major decisions (outside the time of battle),  like letting wildlings pass, supporting Stannis etc, that way he would know he have the support he needs and would be less temped to make decisions based on personal feelings.

[kg1982]

just an Other, on 26 July 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Well, their methods are very different and I think Skahaz is actually loyal to Dany, because all his power stems from her.

Really??  You think that he's loyal to Dany.  I think that he is loyal to himself.  I heard a very interesting theory that perhaps Shavepate was the one that poisoned Dany, and he had to know that his coup with Barristan was going to end in burning the city down.  My theory is that Skahaz is hoping that both the slavers and Dany's forces destroy each other and that he ends up on top.  He played a bit of cyvasse here - he is trying to create a sequence of events where Dany is discredited by using her dragons and the slavers are still unpopular with the huge majority of the population for being evil slavers.  My theory comes down to the Perfumed Senschel. I know many people think that this is Jorah and Tyrion's ship, but why would Dany need to be wary of either.  Jorah is devoted to her.  Tyrion has his own agenda, which she needs to be wary of, but right now it is in Tyrion's best interest to help Dany.  I'm thinking that Martin was throwing in a red herring to distract us from the real threat.

[Dacie]

I find it very curious that Dany worries about being mastered by Daario.  If we think of being mastered in the sense of losing control, there's not much left to lose.  

The slave trade has resumed and they are rubbing it in her face.  Her dragons are chained up and at this time she has no plan or hope of controlling them, and it's well known.  The fighting pits are re-opening.  She is married to a man she doesn't love and this peace derives from him, and is tenuous at best.  Her authority has been undermined by Hizdar and the GG, and she is dancing to their strings.  

She has effectively been mastered already.  

I wonder if she thinks that if she gives in to Daario, she will have to embrace the fire and blood mentality she's been fighting against, and that frightens her the most.

[tze]

Dany sees in this chapter that Viserion has completely broken his chains, while Rhaegal remains chained. This is interesting for a number of reasons: first, because Viserion is supposed to be the weakest and least dangerous of the dragons----but if he's so weak, how has he managed to unchain himself while Rhaegal has not? Second, because while Dany prides herself on being the Breaker of Chains, the prospect of the dragons' chains being broken is a frightening one, even to Dany. Is "breaking chains" inherently a good thing? Is a leader giving his/her "subjects" unfettered freedom---which includes the freedom to destroy---inherently a positive thing?

Here we see Dany (and Barristan) interpreting the dragons' behavior in a way that implicitly understands them to be inherently pro-Dany:

Quote

One of the elephants trumpeted at them from his stall. An answering roar from below made her flush with sudden heat. Prince Quentyn looked up in alarm. “The dragons know when she is near,” Ser Barristan told him.
Every child knows its mother, Dany thought. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves … “They call to me. Come.”

Dany and Barristan presume that these two dragons remain Dany's "children". But what is actually, objectively happening here? An elephant trumpets, a dragon responds . . . and Dany and Barristan just assume the dragon was roaring because it somehow sensed Dany's presence. Doesn't it make more sense that the dragon roared because it heard the elephant, not because it somehow sensed Dany's presence, and Barristan and Dany are attributing emotional responses to these dragons that are simply not there?

And look at how the dragons act once Dany and Quentyn enter the pit. Rhaegal is still chained, but his only attention to Dany/Quentyn was to glance at them when they entered----but he makes no move toward them. And Viserion, remember, is no longer chained. Yet he makes absolutely no move to head toward Dany. It's interesting to compare Viserion's actions here to his actions when Dany entered the pit after initially having the dragons chained (after Dany learned about the Hazzea incident): back then, Viserion was still completely chained, yet he made two efforts to head toward Dany when she entered the pit (though it's unclear whether he wanted to get to Dany or, you know, the only exit from his prison, an exit that Dany just so happened to be standing in). Here, Viserion is perfectly capable of heading toward Dany (or the exit, if that was his original goal) now . . . yet he does nothing. Why? What has changed?

Alysanne., on 26 July 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

I find it very curious that Dany worries about being mastered by Daario.

Looking at the whole Dany/Daario relationship, I thought it was interesting to see how Dany seems to laud the same behavior in Daario that she condemned in Jorah. Back in ASOS, she yelled at Jorah for, as she saw it, trying to push other men away from her so that she'd have to rely on him as the only man she could trust. Daario does the same thing by trying to get Dany to separate herself emotionally from all of the men who he seems to feel she might potentially value more than him: he demeans Ser Barristan to the point where he gets Dany herself to think of Barristan demeaningly, he makes it very clear he doesn't want her to marry Hizdahr, he freaks out on the Dornishmen to a degree that makes me think he was less concerned about their "betrayal" and more concerned with the prospect of three young, highborn potential rival suitors who had the tactical advantage of hailing from Dany's "home" of Westeros. He probably knows Dany doesn't trust the Shavepate or Reznak, and nobody ever seems to consider the bloodriders as romantic possibilities, and therefore Daario never seems to care about any of them.

So it's very interesting how Daario sought to manipulate Dany into distancing herself from anyone who might be an emotional (not even just romantic) rival to him, and Dany seems to subconsciously approve of Daario's actions there (she seems to see his attempt to monopolize her affections as evidence that he really does love her). She marries Hizdahr, but still dreams of Daario---in her heart she still hasn't given him up. Dany didn't want to be mastered by Jorah, but she seems to see Daario "mastering" her as something she actually craves. Is it because she doesn't realize the Daario/Jorah parallels, or does she see Daario as a symbol of something she craves (pure, unbridled destruction?) that she didn't see in Jorah (controlled, directed destruction, perhaps?).

Edited by tze, 26 July 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[Apple Martini]

tze, on 26 July 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

<snip>

Interesting stuff about the anthropomorphizing of the dragons. I've noticed a lot of causation/correlation confusion in Dany's chapters and this is an interesting one.

[Blisscraft]

Interesting point about Daario, tze.  Dany hasn't given him up in her "heart," but she chose him to be a hostage with the Yunkai'i.  Because Dany gives him over to the Yunkai'i, she isn't truly "mastered" by him.  She is still in charge, albeit, tenuously.  In a way, he is very like one of her dragons, out of control and extremely dangerous.  Daario is "war and woe," just as her dragons were/are/will be.  Dany thinks that he will be "safer" as a hostage, however it seems that everyone else, including Dany, is safer with him as a hostage.