461 replies to this topic

[What is dead may never die]

This thread is for those who believe that Jon is dead and will somehow some way be brought back to life. I want to hear your theories (crackpots and all!!!) on his resurrection.

For those who think that he is dead and will not come back, we get it, you truly believe that Mr. Martin wasted his and our time with this character for 5 books only to be murdered in the most cowardly way by his own order. Makes perfect sense.


So anyway, I wrote this in a post on another thread but I wanted to put here anew.

I have put this together via the AA prophecy, Jon's dream in ADwD where he is standing atop the Wall with black armor covered in ice and a flaming sword (don't have my book with me right now, or I'd be more specific) and my own personal wishes for the story. Forgive me.

I believe that he is dead and his soul will warg Ghost for some time. (It would be awesome if GRRM gave us a POV or 2 from this angle) Meanwhile, Mel from her fire-visions will see that she will have to bring Jon back to life via some freaky R'hllor ceremony where she has to burn his body, with his sword, Longclaw, in a pyre instead of the kiss that Thoros uses. (Perhaps it will take her 3 tries, in accordance with the original AA)

Jon will comback as a hybrid version of himself and Ghost, his normal body with a few changes from Ghost (white hair; Targ feature for the R+L = J factor and ice; red eyes, fire), he will then pull his burning sword from the fire and plunge it into the heart of Mel, thus fulfilling the prophecy of AA. And will now be ready to kick some ass against The Others.

(The stone dragon part will come later when he is in the crypts of Winterfell and re-emerges from them with the truth of his parents; haven't quite worked this one out yet but that's what I'm leaning towards, not an actual stone dragon).


Anyway that's my hope for his character or something along those lines.

Edited by Stubby, 08 December 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[Dwarven_Guile]

I agree that Jon will be resurreced, the why I think I understand, the how i'm not so sure now. I had originally thought of just the regular R'hollor Kiss, but your theory is certainly interesting and gives some different angles. I am a firm believer of Jon = R+L and AA, however even after several entire series re-reads I still don't have all my prophcies and their points down to a T. Interesting theory of his rebirth, I've also always thought that Jon HAD TO DIE to fulfill his destiny as AA, so to be honest I expected him to somehow die in ADwD just not at the hands of his craven brothers.

[aryagonnakill]

I think you've got the jist of it, Mel's vision of Jon becoming ghost and then himself again is another indicator.  I'd diverge from your theory when you get to the crypts. I think we will learn about Jon's parents via Howland Reed.  I think if the crypts come into play it will either be some actual Stark ghost's kicking some serious Bolton ass, or Bran telling Stannis via weirwood that there is a secret way into Winterfell via the crypts.  I'm also open to the possibility that Jon will be in Ghost for a short while and go North as Ghost to find Benjen or something. I read some nice posts in regards to that theory, but I still think its more likely we'll learn about the far north via Bran.

[DirtyRobes]

I'd say this will be the one of the toughest questions until the next book. I change my mind on this a lot but recently i had the idea that after his death Mel just arrogantly assumes she will be able to resurrect him(maybe she had something to do with the stabbing?) with the fire kiss... and it fails... all out war erupts at the wall, Wildlings vs the Watch. The Nights Watch is decimated, save the few that get along with wildlings, Jons body is placed in the cells(fear of wighting)...
from here im less sure, Some sort of Old god intervention(weirnet in launched) or maybe the wildlings burn Mel/The Queen/Shireen/Patchface and their life can pay for Jon's.
It's hard to predict the sort of powers Bran will have now he's with BR maybe Jon can become Bran's Coldhands:)
I'm thinking we'll get atleast 1 maybe 2 chapters as Ghost and Jon will finally realise that Bran isnt dead...

[MtnLion]

I have a theory that UnCatelyn will learn of her children being alive, and will gather them.  In the process, it is quite possible that she will learn the truth about Jon from Howland.  I have always thought that it would be very fitting for UnCat to be the only one that could bring Jon back, and only at the cost of her own life, as Beric did for her.  Melisandre may see things that are true in her fires, but her skills are limited to that, her illusions, and shadow magic; with her skill at interpretation being highly suspect.  I see Mel becoming a dark force in the future, and I don't want Jon to have any truck with her at all.  If he does, he is likely to get abused by her.

[LittleDragon8]

Val will sacrifice her own life to let Jon live. Only death can pay for life, plus I don't want Melisandre anywhere near Jon. She creeps me out big time.

[DirtyRobes]

MtnLion, on 27 July 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

I have a theory that UnCatelyn will learn of her children being alive, and will gather them.  In the process, it is quite possible that she will learn the truth about Jon from Howland.  I have always thought that it would be very fitting for UnCat to be the only one that could bring Jon back, and only at the cost of her own life, as Beric did for her.  Melisandre may see things that are true in her fires, but her skills are limited to that, her illusions, and shadow magic; with her skill at interpretation being highly suspect.  I see Mel becoming a dark force in the future, and I don't want Jon to have any truck with her at all.  If he does, he is likely to get abused by her.

I like this^^^would be a great end to her character, but I dont think the BWB will make it to the wall or vice-versa.

[sumant30]

I think jon snow is not fully dead if grrm wants him to live so probably the wildlings will save him

[BronnJonBronson]

love the cat ressurecting jon idea it would be a perfect end for her, and ive been thinking that jon as ghost will go to the crypts of winterfell while he is dead and he will find some truth about who he really is, what his destiny is and the true magic power of the wall/winterfell  and when he is brought back he will march on winerfell to collect his sword/dragon egg/whatever he sees as ghost

[ManlessFace]

I agree Jon's body is dead, may be warging, may be just killing time, but his death is going to require a Kiss from Mel to bring him back. As far as the AA resurrection, the original had to kill his wife with his sword to animate it. Mel is never spoken of affectionately by Jon, and I doubt he would have to think too awful long or hard about plunging a flaming sword through her crazy chest if it came to that. If AA's gifts came from the quality of the sacrifices he had to make, Jon is going to have to kill someone a bit more important to him than Mel to get Longclaw warm and glowing. But the question is who?

...I'm thinking Wun Wun.
Just kidding.

[sumant30]

Lord Bronson, on 27 July 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

love the cat ressurecting jon idea it would be a perfect end for her, and ive been thinking that jon as ghost will go to the crypts of winterfell while he is dead and he will find some truth about who he really is, what his destiny is and the true magic power of the wall/winterfell  and when he is brought back he will march on winerfell to collect his sword/dragon egg/whatever he sees as ghost

chances of that happening are pretty bleak because BwB is in riverlands and riverlands to WF is a long journey and so is from Wall to WF.

[nepaliman_7]

I agree that he'll need to die to fulfill the prophecy.  I kind of like the idea of him combining with Ghost, that would be cool to see.

[sumant30]

nepaliman_7, on 28 July 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

I agree that he'll need to die to fulfill the prophecy.  I kind of like the idea of him combining with Ghost, that would be cool to see.

It would be interesting if join wargs with the ghost .

[Patrick Durden]

The idea of Jon warging into Ghost is attractive because of the prologue but I think it was meant more as an explanation for Bran's story than Jon's. I see Melisandre resurrecting Jon somehow which will then allow her to understand why she has been seeing him instead of Stannis in her fires as Azor Azai. What will be interesting is how Jon handles his brothers killing him. I think he ends up making his own army of wildlings to go up against the Others.

[Jaqen H'ghar's Real Face]

I agree with the jist of What is Dead May Never Die, but I don't know if ghost is going merge with Jon, even though I think it would be cool. Also I like your idea of Jon finding his parents from his ancestors (perhaps Lyanna telling him the truth?), but overall I like your theory.

[Budj]

So if val really is more than meets the eye and the moon singers in essos were influenced by wildlings then i have to wonder if Jon is resurrected similar to drogo... With blood magic via val. His loop hole is that he is a warg so he can re enter his vegetable body that will be physically healed but mentally toast. This avoids the awkwardness of a nasty red god resurrection and keeps non from owing Mel anything... This also forces death to bend the knee

[RobertsLastBastard]

Makes me wonder if Robb could have stayed alive via Grey Ghost had they not been both killed

[The Cocky Wolf]

Like your theory first and foremost.

The way I see it the Wall is ripe for the taking, its going to be in disarray after the Lord Commanders death, what better time for the WoW to come and sweep over the shield that guards the realms of men. I mean if the Others dont show up soon how is GRRM gonna wrap everything up in two books?

I really believe that Jon will warg into Ghost and maybe he'll witness the Others coming to the Wall in a POV chap.(it would be ironic because he wouldn't be able to do anything).

The main reason I can see Jon coming back to life is to have a very important role in the following book, why else "kill" him then just bring him back again.
Maybe he'll take a part in the war seeing how his brothers dont want him to be LC anymore, (whats the point of him resuming his post as LC only to be killed by the Others, maybe) As Jon being the only son of Eddard still alive and with Stannis being able to make him a Stark, maybe hes the answer to uniting the north and getting them to back Stannis against the Iron Throne.

I really think GRRM is going to do something very unexpected with the AA prophecy. He has put in many obvious candidates forward but i think the final interpretation is going to include more than one person and a series of events that maybe havent happened yet. I think that the prophecies are going to come to fruition in very vague and ironic way, i dont think that AA is a super badass ninja dude armed with obsidian everything and killing Others left and right (point is that i dont think that AA is a sole person).

[bemused]

While I think it's possible that the Moonsingers could owe something to the religion of the Old Gods , when we get to find out about them ( maybe especially location visions ), I think the two have long gone their separate ways..and Val is too rooted in Wildling culture /  the Old Gods' religion to be an imported Moonsinger.

I strongly suspect Val is some form of priestess ,and because GRRM said the Old Gods' religion is based on the Norse, I believe she is similar to a Vala , and Dalla was as well. We'll have to wait and see how much or how little GRRM has them conform to our Norse society.

In Norse culture / religion Vala were primarily seers.They travelled about and were hired by this group or that to foresee the outcome of various events or plans. Sometimes one would ally herself permanently to an individual leader , helping him to shape his battle plans..e.g. should he take on this or that opponent and where would it be best to do so. ( Dalla's marriage to Mance would be one way such an alliance would work )

When Jon wonders how he will be able to sell bringing in Tormund's people to the NW , Val says , "Let me help" and , "I can do more"... It's possible Jon doesn't realise her true position any more than Stannis and Mel do. He just knows she's not a princess by the southron definition of the word.

I somehow doubt GRRM has just begun to make hints about her only to have her sacrifice herself using magic based in an Essosi religion. Dalla gave Jon a general warning about using magic. Val reminds him of it specifically in regard to Mel's magic...But if she has some of the powers of a Vala , she can't be too open about it , since she would be in extreme danger from Mel.

I think Jon is wounded and needs healing , not ressurection . I hope it will be Val and not Mel who steps in to save Jon , but it would be sort of pointless to have her sacrifice herself without  GRRM elaborating on the hints he's already given about her.

Edited by bemused, 30 July 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Free Northman]

Jon is not linked to Mellisandre's religion, but to the Old Gods. Therefore, it is more likely that his ressurection will involve Bran and Bloodraven, than Mellisandre.

Personally, I believe it will involve both magics, thus tying in with the Ice and Fire theme.

As for how he will be revived? Just like Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal were revived. Only death can pay for life. And only a King's Blood can raise a Dragon.

So some King (or Kings) will have to be sacrificed to raise Jon Targaryen from the grave.

In the meantime, Maester Aemon said that the Wall preserves. Couple that with the ice cold of the storerooms below the Ice, and Jon's body will not decay in the way that Catelyn's did. And his soul will be inside Ghost, thus preserving his personality as well.

Then a captive is sacrificed in front of a weirwood to bring him back to life. This captive must have King's Blood.

Now, having put all of that together, who do we know that is being taken to a Heart Tree right now to be executed, and who also happens to have King's Blood in his veins, and a heck of debt to pay to House Stark. Hmmm...