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Jon Snow (Spoilers)


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#41 dreamcatcher

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 06:02 PM

Right after I read the book, I was sure that he really died and will be brought back to life..

Now, after a year of contemplation, and the 'You think he's dead, do you?' spoken by GRRM, I think he'll just be in a deep coma. I hope so, I certainly don't want to see an UnJon or ColdhandsJon or VictarionJon.

He'll warg Ghost, though, lots of hints for that in the book. Ghost will probably die for Jon to live again.

#42 poky

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:01 PM

hey fellow soiaf fans,

I have just recently finish the a dwd and been down for a few days, lol. Jon Snow IS my favorite character so I am a little bump that he got stab four times at the end of dwd. So I started looking to see if GRRM had made any statement of jon in the next book but nothing, with that I would like to tell you my theory on how I want the next jon chapter to start.

Jon wakes up in his quarters and he realized that he is ghost and has warged. Then melisandre come in and says, "I told you so, you know nothing Jon Snow." Then they go out and see that the wildings and crows had a fight over the crows killing him. But the crows won since they took the wilding and jon off guard. So then they burn all the bodies to prevent them from turning wights. So ghost/jon watches as all the bodies including his own burn. However after all the fires are out, they see that jon's body is intact (like dany at the end of GoT) and healed of all wounds, the burn hand, hawk scratches and stabs. Then ghost/jon goes to the body and licks it and he raises in his original body and as he stands up ghost howls for the first time. Then, melisandre realizes that jon is AA. This also fit her visions of jon going from men to wolf to a men.

Moreover, since jon died he is not with the night's watch and can march south with a wilding army to retake winterfell and hopefully meet Howard Reed (who is looking for his children and is the hooded men who theon saw) and learn about R+L=J.

Also, this reminds me of harry potter who also had to died but came back "on." so instead of going to king's cross, jon will go to ghost before coming back or at least I hope.

Also, can someone tell me if melisandre is still pregnant or did she stop being pregnant when she gave birth to the shadow baby?

Edited by poky, 03 August 2012 - 07:14 PM.


#43 bemused

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:14 PM

dreamctcher.. if you think Jon is in a deep coma ( not dead ). Why would you think Ghost would have to die for Jon to live ?

#44 EnragedFilia

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:15 PM

My interpretation is that she was never "pregnant" in the normal, physical sense. But semantics aside, we've had no indication of a pregnancy since that time.

#45 little & less

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:23 AM

I like the idea of Jon's body being burned and the fire "heals" all of his wounds, allowing him to jump from Ghost back into his body. This would obviously assure everyone that R+L=J and allow Jon to fight The Others and possibly take back Winterfell from the Boltons.

But when he killed the first wight in A Game of Thrones, he burns his hand when he throws the lamp. Why all of a sudden would fire heal him if it injured him before?

#46 poky

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:17 AM

I like the idea of Jon's body being burned and the fire "heals" all of his wounds, allowing him to jump from Ghost back into his body. This would obviously assure everyone that R+L=J and allow Jon to fight The Others and possibly take back Winterfell from the Boltons.

But when he killed the first wight in A Game of Thrones, he burns his hand when he throws the lamp. Why all of a sudden would fire heal him if it injured him before?


Yeah, that would be a problem but I was thinking dany wasnt immune to fire in the books at least not into she jump into the fires (not like the show that show her not burning holding the eggs before) and in dwd she does get burns and blisters. Also, viserys was a targaryen and of course he was burned. I think he will not burn and bcome immune to fire once he is reborn as AA and for that he needs to die first.

Edited by poky, 04 August 2012 - 09:20 AM.


#47 The King of Worms

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:34 PM

hey fellow soiaf fans,

I have just recently finish the a dwd and been down for a few days, lol. Jon Snow IS my favorite character so I am a little bump that he got stab four times at the end of dwd. So I started looking to see if GRRM had made any statement of jon in the next book but nothing, with that I would like to tell you my theory on how I want the next jon chapter to start.

Jon wakes up in his quarters and he realized that he is ghost and has warged. Then melisandre come in and says, "I told you so, you know nothing Jon Snow." Then they go out and see that the wildings and crows had a fight over the crows killing him. But the crows won since they took the wilding and jon off guard. So then they burn all the bodies to prevent them from turning wights. So ghost/jon watches as all the bodies including his own burn. However after all the fires are out, they see that jon's body is intact (like dany at the end of GoT) and healed of all wounds, the burn hand, hawk scratches and stabs. Then ghost/jon goes to the body and licks it and he raises in his original body and as he stands up ghost howls for the first time. Then, melisandre realizes that jon is AA. This also fit her visions of jon going from men to wolf to a men.

Moreover, since jon died he is not with the night's watch and can march south with a wilding army to retake winterfell and hopefully meet Howard Reed (who is looking for his children and is the hooded men who theon saw) and learn about R+L=J.

Also, this reminds me of harry potter who also had to died but came back "on." so instead of going to king's cross, jon will go to ghost before coming back or at least I hope.

Also, can someone tell me if melisandre is still pregnant or did she stop being pregnant when she gave birth to the shadow baby?

Love this theory. Totally fits. The vision of him going from man to wolf to man. His spirit may visit the crypts at Winterfell too, so this is the vision of him surrounded by skulls... the skulls are those of other Kings in the North. Meaning that Jon becomes King in the North, of all the North both sides of the Wall... which would be awesome.

#48 aryagonnakill

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:34 PM

I like the idea of Jon's body being burned and the fire "heals" all of his wounds, allowing him to jump from Ghost back into his body. This would obviously assure everyone that R+L=J and allow Jon to fight The Others and possibly take back Winterfell from the Boltons.

But when he killed the first wight in A Game of Thrones, he burns his hand when he throws the lamp. Why all of a sudden would fire heal him if it injured him before?

grrm has said that dany is not immune to fire just that the particular spell/whatever went on on that occasion protected her.

#49 Stark_Wolf

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:43 AM

I don’t think it was Jon at all that was attacked.

I know the chapter is written from Jon’s PoV but I think the person who got stabbed is a wilding that has been glamoured by Mellisandre.

Melisandre is clearly invested in the Jon character. She has constantly warned him and if she really can see things in her fire then surely she would be aware that an attack was imminent.

When Rattleshirt was glamoured to look like Mance we know that Milisandre felt the flames and that only ended when Rattleshirt was killed. We don’t know what Mance felt, i.e. could he see / feel the flames? Is Jon safely somewhere looking on and ‘feeling’ the knives?

Also I think Jon’s sudden decision to ride off to Winterfell is a bit out of character. He gets this letter which he acknowledges the content of which likely to contain lies but to suddenly want to skip off to Winterfell doesn’t ring true to me. He has repeatedly said that he has no family only brothers.

The letter refers to Arya and suggests she’s escaped so I don’t think that would tempt him away from the Wall, I mean surely this is good news.

Also the letter he receives claims that Stannis is dead. I don’t believe that Jon wouldn’t go to Queen Selyse first. Again I think this is out of character and ‘Jon’ even acknowledges this in his thoughts at the end of the meeting.

Also when he’s finished reading the letter to Tormund he thinks about the warning from Melisandre and repeats her words to himself.... “Melisandre … look to the skies, she said.” He set the letter down. “A raven in a storm. She saw this coming.”When you have your answers, send to me.”

Does he go to her at this point before the meeting? GRRM has ‘left’ out key moments like that to build the suspense and create cliffhangers before.

Maybe it’s all just wishful thinking on my part!!!

#50 bemused

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 07:50 PM

Stark_Wolf...Nice wishful thinking ! I don't know if I can climb aboard, yet , but maybe.. it's pretty interesting..

If this were to pan out , I'd guess the glamoured one,( one of the glamoured ones ?) would be Cregan Karstark. I think he'd listen to a plan that would set him free , alright....Didn't he still have 2 Karstarks loyal to him ? ( They might declare for Alys or take the black with him out of the way. )

I've often pointed out to people that we know Jon and Tormund talked for 2 hours, but not how much time actually elapsed before they went to the sheildhall, and we don't know if they went somewhere else after that or if anyone else came to talk to them during or after those 2 hrs.... What happened to Satin ? Mully? Did they report back about Clydas ? Did Ser Patrek really think he could take on a Giant on his own ? Or did someone suggest it ?

I really never wanted to see Mel resurrect Jon , or even heal him ( preferring a healing by Val and /or Morna ) but I don't mind her in this role /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

Not going to Selyse seemed really out of character , and I felt sure he would have wanted to talk to Mel during the missing time , because it only seemed logical that he'd want to see if she could verify or debunk the claim about Stannis .

Hmmm ...I never thought he was really planning to go to WF ( unless Arya or Ramsay didn't turn up on the way ) but rather to try to scoop Arya up and waylay Ramsay before he could pose a serious threat to the wall , just as with Alys Karstark.

Edited by bemused, 11 August 2012 - 07:53 PM.


#51 Benxz88

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:35 PM

Assuming R+L=J is correct, then Jon would have king's blood. So if his dead(?) body is burned at any point (Mel trying to save him or cremation so he doesn't become a wight) would this be enough to "wake the dragons" that Mel has been talking about? I'm still on the fence about how much power Mel has, and I don't want Jon to stay dead, but this seems to me like a possibility.

#52 Cold-King

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:25 AM

I have a theory that UnCatelyn will learn of her children being alive, and will gather them. In the process, it is quite possible that she will learn the truth about Jon from Howland. I have always thought that it would be very fitting for UnCat to be the only one that could bring Jon back, and only at the cost of her own life, as Beric did for her. Melisandre may see things that are true in her fires, but her skills are limited to that, her illusions, and shadow magic; with her skill at interpretation being highly suspect. I see Mel becoming a dark force in the future, and I don't want Jon to have any truck with her at all. If he does, he is likely to get abused by her.

Ive always thought that Howland Reed was going to be the person that finally reveals the promise that ned made to lyanna, i just never thought it would be to Cat (UNcat). I think thats kind of fitting that it would be her that brought Jon back too life considering how much of a cold hearted bitch shes been to him all his life, so yea, I like it /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

#53 donmerl

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:51 AM

I also think he will be in ghosts body while he is dead/unconcious. I also hope while he is in ghost bran goes in ghost too or at least make contact with jon and give him some information.

#54 Cold-King

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 07:07 AM

I don’t think it was Jon at all that was attacked.

I know the chapter is written from Jon’s PoV but I think the person who got stabbed is a wilding that has been glamoured by Mellisandre.

Ive heard people say this before and IMO i dont think its the case, as somebody said, its just wishful thinking, its one thing glamouring some one but quite another having Jons thoughts (POV) coming from a supposed wildling whos getting shanked! pure poppy cock!

#55 Lord Liam DarkStark

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:55 PM

Assuming R+L=J is correct, then Jon would have king's blood. So if his dead(?) body is burned at any point (Mel trying to save him or cremation so he doesn't become a wight) would this be enough to "wake the dragons" that Mel has been talking about? I'm still on the fence about how much power Mel has, and I don't want Jon to stay dead, but this seems to me like a possibility.



#56 Lord Liam DarkStark

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:57 PM

Jon already has king's blood? Starks were kings. Same as greyjoys. Same as lannisters. Lots of houses used to be ruling families headed by kings. And with this those houses have king's blood.

#57 gogorath

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 03:56 PM

It's clear from the chapter that it is Jon "speaking" in the POV, not Cregan-Karstack-as-Jon or whomever else might be glamoured.

Also, there's a reason there's been so much talk of the dead bodies preserved so perfectly in the ice cells, I think. I think that's where Jpn's body goes while he's in ghost.

#58 evita mgfs

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:00 AM

I posted this long post on another site, but it may belong here. So I am posting it here as well in hopes I get reactions to my theories.

Arguments for the Glamorization of Jon Snow
It stands to reason that Martin’s Prologue POV in DWD foreshadows Jon Snow warging his Ghost as Varamyr Sixskins wargs One-Eye before he dies. If this is so, perhaps Martin’s disclosure about the nature of “glamors” in Arya’s POV when the Kindly Man distinguishes among the “faceless man’s” facial alterations, and the mummer’s artifice, and a sorcerer’s glamor. Likewise, Mel educates Jon Snow on the sorceress’s glamor demonstrating with a real live subject: Mel reveals that Mance Rayder is alive, only shrouded in a “glamor” to disguise him as Rattleshirt.
The KM in the HOB&W explains to Arya: “Mummers change their faces with artifice . . . and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with” (842-843). From these words, we can deduce that a glamor is an illusion, a magic trick achieved by weaving “light and shadow” - a “seeming” rather than a “reality”.
Consequently, Mel does “glamor” Jon Snow moments before, or as he is attacked by his black brothers of the Night’s Watch. Note that she “does not” shroud Jon Snow in the cloak of another, as she did Rattleshirt. Instead, Mel makes the stab wounds seep smoking blood for a dramatic effect, and perhaps the glamor even protects Jon from the fatal strikes. Jon Snow himself does not realize a magic glamor affects him, one that tricks the NW into believing their scheme to assassinate their Lord Commander is successful and compels Jon to warg into Ghost as a means of self-preservation.
Also worthy of “note” in the KM’s dialogue is the fact that some glamors “dissolve before sharp eyes”; for instance, Arya, in her FM training, can now easily determine a glamor from a true facial reconfiguration. However, the men of the NW and others witnessing the “real acts of murder” against Jon Snow will be “blind” to Mel’s glamor on Jon, which is sort of an invisible force field. Drawing inferences from the KM, a person who can recognize “glamors” needs to be trained. We also know that the NW and other witnesses at the Wall are incapable of discerning glamors because they were fooled by Rattleshirt’s “likeness” concealing Mance’s identity.
Before looking at Mel’s discussion of the nature of glamors, I wish to reiterate that Jon was warned by many, including Mel, of “daggers in the dark”. He even had a nightmare in which he was battling the Wights wearing the countenances of his fallen brothers and others who have died. Moreover, Jon’s father Ned taught him: “A good lord must know his men . . .” ((710). Exactly – Jon knows he cannot “trust” his men, and he may very likely anticipate an attack by those who are truly displeased with his decisions, especially his invitation to the Wildlings to cross the Wall in order to spare them from the threat of Winter and from the true foe, the Other who uses the dead bodies to create armies of Wights. Therefore, Jon takes precautions in the event of a stabbing. He wears his mail concealed beneath his attire [a la Freys at the RW], including extra layers of wolf skin beneath his cloak. Due to his buffered clothing, the blades the conspirators poke him with do not create fatal puncture wounds with organ damage. The excessive, smoking blood is part of the glamor; furthermore, Jon Snow’s loss of consciousness and death-like appearance suggests Mel’s employment of sorcery to help Jon escape his “honor-bound”, loyal brothers.
Defining the glamor for the reader is Mance Rayder, the receiver of the spell. He says to Mel, “The glamor, aye . . . I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman’s kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my sleep it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. . . Must I wear the bloody bones as well?”
“The spell is made of shadow and suggestions. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that. . . If the glamor fails, they will kill you” (412).
When Mel touches her ruby to dissolve the glamor on Rattleshirt, the wildling undergoes a transformation, turning into the likeness of Mance.
Following are the words Martin enlists to write his description:
“Melisandre touched the ruby and spoke a word.
“The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside the ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling’s wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded” (418).
Jon says,
“What sorcery is this?
“Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R’hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others do with thread . . . The bones help . . . The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built on such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair. A bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and a prayer, a man’s shadow can be drawn forth and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s essence does not change, only his seeming.”
Note that the KM and Mel’s descriptions of glamor mirror one another:
Kindly man: “. . . sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye.”
Mel: “Glamor, seeming, illusion. R’hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others do with thread . . . .”
Before Mel reveals Mance to Jon, she uses a glamor to disguise herself as Ygritte. The readers suspect that Mel cloaks herself in the guise of Ygritte to illicit an emotional reaction from the stoic Jon Snow, a true son of House Stark:
“Someone was behind him [Jon Snow], he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day. When he turned he saw Ygritte. She stood beneath the scorched stones of the Lord Commander’s tower, cloaked in darkness and in memory. The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire. When he saw that, Jon’s heart leapt into his mouth.
“Ygritte.” He said.
“Lord Snow.” The voice was Melisandre’s (379).
Surprise made him recoil from her. “Lady Melisandre . . . I mistook you for someone else” (379).
So – Mel manipulates darkness or shadows and light to weave a metaphoric glamor that will speak specifically to Jon Snow. By appearing as the spearwife Jon loved, the red witch evokes memories of the woman. He romantically recalls her hair “kissed by fire.” Moreover, Jon consciously or subconsciously acknowledges Mel’s powers.
After Mel asks to touch Jon’s wolf:
“The thought made Jon uneasy. ‘Best not.’
‘He will not harm me. You call him Ghost, yes?’
‘Yes, but . . . .’
‘Ghost.’ Melesandre made the word a song.
The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.
Jon let out a deep breath. ‘He is not always so . . . .’
‘ . . . warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.’ Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes blazing red, the same way, when they caught the light just right. ‘Ghost,’ he called. ‘To me.’
“ The direwolf looked at him [Jon Snow] as if he were a stranger.
“Jon frowned in disbelief. ‘That’s queer.’
‘You think so?’ She knelt and scratched Ghost behind the ear. “Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it’
Next, Jon is startled by Ghost’s mysterious reaction to him. However, once learning about “glamors” through the KM and Mel, the readers may suspect that Mel’s sorcery allows her free use of illusion: it seems that Mel “alters” Jon’s appearance, confusing Ghost, who does not immediately understand what has occurred. As a matter of fact, Mel may have flip-flopped her appearance with Jon’s – so when Mel puts her hand on Ghost, and Ghost licks her fingers, he is “reacting” to the “glamor” – he brushes against Mel believing she is “Jon”. Thus, Ghost’s actions are ‘true’ – he has merely been fooled/confused by the ‘sudden’ glamor.
As Ghost licks her face, Mel tells Jon that the lord of light made male and female, “Two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”
“Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.”
Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall . . . Jon could feel her warmth. She has power (380).
These ‘glamors’ Mel performs are simple illusion; they are not complicated, full-scale glamors such as the one she casts on Mance and Rattleshirt. In that glamor, she had to use her ruby conduit and a bracelet on Mance to maintain it for a longer period of time. Moreover, Mel notes that her powers are growing daily – combined with the powers at the Wall and the powers in Snow, maybe Mel aspires to draw from all these powers to grow stronger – so each glamor will be easier to evoke and less demanding to maintain. If readers attend to Mel’s disclosure in her only POV in DWD, not even a full halfway through the novel, they may garner from the suggestion in these lines of the ease with which spells, such as ‘glamors’, are coming to her:
“My spells should suffice. [Since her magic powders are depleting, Mel rationalizes that she will no longer need the powders because her own sorcery is becoming more potent.] She was stronger at the Wall, stronger than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need if the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers (411). Deducing that some additional time passes before Jon is attacked by the Ides of Marsh, by then Mel will only need to whisper “a word” and “wave her hand” to invoke a ‘glamor’ onto Jon Snow, thereby exercising “sorceries at her command . . . she could do things [glamor Snow to protect him, use smoke and excess blood for dramatic value and to convince assassins and others that Snow is dead,] employ spells, illusions, distractions using ‘light and shadow’ to enable the safeguard of Jon Snow’s body, transposing Jon Snow’s clothes with a corpse already in the ice cells, or the corpse of a recently fallen brother or Wildling; glamming corpse to resemble Snow, a cinch with Snow’s bloody undergarments and cloak, send fake JS corpse to her fires where the melodramatic resurrection that so many posters hope to see in WoW occurs – or the dead corpse is reanimated by a wight, with none of Mel’s sorcery involved – she will be as horrified as all funeral attendants]. Then his brothers will have to ‘kill him again’, forcing him into the flames.

I wish to add that Martin will employ another POV, not Jon's, to narrate Jon Snow's assassination, aftermath, and funeral. The author will keep us fretting about his fate even in the WOW. Later, we will learn much and more through a Ghost POV.

At the Shieldhall, Jon notices that Mel arrives after he has begun his speech. I speculate that she is late because she has visited the armory to either free Ghost or open the window so, if need be, Ghost can escape on his own. [See reference below about window and Mance about, and recall that it is snowing and drifting against the Wall, so depending on the drop from the window, Ghost could leap into a deep snow drift only a foot below the ledge?] Surely, Ides of Marsh and Co. have fellow conspirators armed and ready to take down Ghost like Robb’s Grey Wind was taken down.
Jon sees Mel depart after he wins the Wildlings to his cause and after he further inflames his brothers. Mel seemingly suspects the conspiracy to kill the Lord Commander, and she may have learned from her fire visions that the time is now. Therefore, she may have attended the meeting to cast her glamor on Jon with a mere ‘gesture’ and ‘word’, [and if she needed JS’s hair. Mance could have brought Snow’s hair from his helmet, or the helmet itself that he wore in the yard during his sword fight with Rattleshirt/Mance. OR Mance could have stolen a personal item of Jon Snow’s by sneaking in the window of the armory, which Mance had boasted to Jon that the LC was poorly guarded and that any Wildling who had climbed the Wall half a hundred times could easily climb to the window (paraphrase)]

Mere speculation follows: Since Mel “suspects” the Ides of Marsh will make their hit on Jon Snow after the Shieldhall – egged on by JS’s plan to march a Wildling army against Bolton – after hearing the Wildling King-Beyond-the-Wall may still be alive – on top of their personal grudges against Jon Snow and their idealistic subterfuge of committing murder for “the Watch” by eliminating their traitorous, warging, Wildling-loving bastard Lord Commander who aspires to be named the Prince of Winterfell and trueborn son of Lord Eddard Stark – the Ides of Marsh conspiracy has sufficient provocation to set their ‘plans’ into motion.
Ser Patrek of the Mountain is assigned the job of causing a distraction by engaging Wun Wun in sword play. Earlier, Ser Patrek had a run in with Jon Snow and Wun Wun; as a result, Jon defended the Giant by scolding Ser Patrek, offering a Neddism: “My lord father used to say a man should never draw his sword unless he means to use it” (582) Ser Patrek, a proud and vain man – evident by his elaborately decorated clothing – is offended by a ‘boy’ – Jon Snow – scolding him in the presence of his queen and fellow soldiers. Note the exchange of words:
“I had been given to understand that the Night’s Watch defended the realm against such monsters. No one mentioned keeping them as pets.”
Another bloody southron fool. “You are . . . ?”
“Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain, if it please my lord.”
“I do not know how you observe guest right on your mountain, ser. In the north we hold it sacred. Wun Wun is a guest here.”
Ser Patrek smiled. “Tell me, Lord Commander, should the Others turn up, do you plan to offer hospitality to them as well?” (583).

Secretly, Ser Patrek hopes for a chance to one-up the Giant and get even with Snow. [When discussing Val and the Wildling custom of stealing a woman to prove strength, cunning, and courage, Jon warns Ser Patrek that “the suitor risks being caught by the woman’s kin, and worse than that if she herself finds him unworthy” (901). Ser Patrek takes Jon Snow’s explanation as a challenge – and no doubt recalls Snow’s reprimand about ‘steel’ – “Ser Patrek chuckled. ‘No man[such as you, Jon Snow] has ever had cause to question my courage. No woman ever will’” (901). Moreover, Ser Patrek knows Wun Wun’s trigger – exposed steel – a dangerous weapon. Ides of Marsh & Co. figure that if Jon Snow hears his “beloved” giant cry out in distress, he will come running, as he has on other occasions [Jon also admits in his POV that he tries to spend time with Wun Wun, picking up the Old Tongue and learning their history. He wishes Sam were at the Wall to write them down. He remembers Ygritte cried for the fate of the Giants.] Ides of Marsh & Co. take advantage of Jon’s soft spot for Wun Wun– BUT

Perhaps Wun Wun is drunk? That could explain why he is SO out-of-control, ripping Ser Patrek limb from limb. That is why Wun Wun ignores Jon’s orders to stop. Jon also orders Leathers to talk to Wun Wun in the Old Tongue; assuming Leathers obeys his LC, Wun Wun is in such a state, he does not heed Jon or Leathers. Jon made mention of the Giant’s taste for wine when Mully asked for his Lord Commander to send him wine at Hardin’s. Jon replies, “ ‘For you, not him [Wun Wun].’ Wun Wun had never tasted wine until he came to Castle Black, but once he had, he had taken a gigantic liking to it. Too much a liking. Jon had enough to contend with just now without adding a drunken giant to the mix” (582). Ser Patrek also heard this exchange. Consequently, Ser Patrek very well could have sent/brought the wine to Wun Wun with an ulterior motive to sauce up the Giant in the hopes of weakening his responses. Whether Ser Patrek, Mully, Val, or other ? advanced wine to Wun Wun, I propose that Wun Wun’s violent outburst is, in part, due to alcohol consumption.
Mel leaves the Shieldhall. If Jon is to warg his direwolf, Ghost needs some assistance getting out.
After Ghost is freed, a likely scenario is that Ghost will guard fiercely Jon’s body from the haters. [Readers have seen Summer guarding Bran while Bran warged into Hodor to fight the wights at the mouth of Bloodraven’s warded cave]. In the confusion that oft follows such a public spectacle, Mel will use this to her advantage, appropriating dead fake Jon, having him carried to a secret ice cell for private nursing to enable Jon’s recovery via Mel, with the help of Devan and Val [and others whom Mel determines trustworthy], will remove Jon Snow’s blood-stained garments to dress one of the corpses/or fallen brother, or Wildling, on which Mel will transfer the glamor of Jon Snow. Once Jon is content, seeing his body in good hands and well guarded, Ghost will run off to find a good vantage point to spy.

Mel then sponsors a funeral where she feeds glamored Jon’s corpse to her night flames, but when the edges of his cloak smolder, Jon Snow’s glamored corpse rises – and JS is momentarily resurrected as a Wight, but JS is finally devoured by flames that snap and crackle, scarlet and gold sparks exploding into a thousand stars that drop to the ground. [Some visual ‘sign’ or fire dance may occur when the flames taste JS’s “king’s blood.]” Most certainly Mel will have a vision unlike any other – maybe even all funeral attendants will look on as the fires reveal Jon Snow’s dead face, his eyes closed. Then his face will dissolve into the face of Ghost with red eyes glowing. Then, Ghost’s ears will elongate and curl into horns, but the red eyes of Ghost will remain as the dragon’s visage overshadows Ghost’s, smoke rising from his nostrils like a white mist. Finally, the dragon’s face will drop away, revealing Jon Snow, his eyes closed. Suddenly, his eyelids open. On his head he wears a crown featuring a dragon with three heads. After the images disappear, Mel whispers softly:
“We have woken the dragon. They killed the boy, now the man will be born. Three heads has the dragon.”
Ghost/Jon will watch his own funeral from a distance.

Where will Ghost go? How long – time-wise - does Jon have inside Ghost before he has to reconnect with his comatose Jon? [Meera and Jojen wake Bran after three days in Summer? I recall they feed him honeyed water for nourishment.] But after Bran eats weirwood paste, can he stay in Summer longer? Will Jon need weirwood paste? Or will Jon periodically return to his comatose body? When Ghost and Jon parted during the Wildling’s assault on the Wall, Jon could not “sense” Ghost until they were united on the same side of the Wall. Thus, does the Wall barricade wargs communicating via guest and host? Will the magic of the Wall continue, even after the betrayal of LCJS by Ides of Marsh?

If Ghost goes North, can he communicate with dead-Jon? With BR’s help, can Jon reconnect with his corpse beyond the Wall? If Jon is in ice cells deep below the Wall [as is foreshadowed in one of Bran’s wolf dreams and used as evidence in many posts], how will folks above get down to care for him and protect his body from physical harm, or from being warged by an evil force. Can’t Jon be snowed in, trapped in the ice cells?
Ghost may lead Val, the warrior princess, and the Wildlings to Winterfell, [They will make true the rumor: “A Ghost in Winterfell”, where the direwolf will sniff out a secret path by which to gain access to Winterfell, similar to Grey Wind finding a long-forgotten goat track. [Ghost and company may join up with Stannis to march on Winterfell, if Stannis has not yet attacked, or been attacked.] They could also meet up with Asha Greyjoy, Jeyne Bolton/Fake Arya Bolton, and Alys Mormont and company. Ghost could at least learn his little sister is a fake, even though, since Ghost is silent, he will not be able to make dog noises to communicate to anyone that matters that Jeyne Poole is an imposter.

Check out how Martin hooks together Jon and Val. Ghost/Jon with Val may be an interesting POV. Think Beauty and the Beast, a television series Martin worked on – but don’t think too literally.
“Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
They look as if they belong together. Val was clad all in white: white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather. White bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well; . . . but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
‘Have you been trying to steal my wolf?’ he asked her.
‘Why not? If every woman had a direwolf, men would be much sweeter, even crows’” (703).
Jon recalls Axell Florent saying of Val, “ ‘A nubile girl, not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children.’ All true enough, but the wildling woman was so much more. She had proved that by finding Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord” (703).
If Jon/Ghost and Val end up going North or South together, Jon’s point of view as Ghost with a man’s sensibilities might be a good read (not bestiality). I will not elaborate for fear I will write myself into a corner.
Sorry this ended up as long as it did. I am sure someone probably already has my ideas, although I read through posts to try to avoid repeating theories not my own. I am happy I finally memorialized my theories in the written word. Next week, I will probably have new theories that will refute these arguments I presented here. (Not)

#59 Budj

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:44 PM

Just finished reading tWoW sample chapter and had a crazy idea pertaining to Jon's fix - if you haven't read it and don't want to / don't want spoilers don't read this...keep in mind this is crackpot and not really how I necessarily am convinced it will work out, but hoping this generates a new angle of discussion:



Spoiler


#60 Damon_Tor

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:13 AM

My theory is that Jon's resurrection will include themes of every other resurrection/life after death we've seen so far, making it a culmination rather than "just another one."

Snow's mind/soul live on in Ghost (reminiscent of Varimyr and other wargs). Melisandre will attempt a resurrection (reminiscent of Dondarrion) and while the body will return to life, his mind will not return (reminiscent of Khal Drogo). Bran, meanwhile, will guide Snow's soul back into his body (reminiscent of Coldhands*). Thus, Jon Snow's resurrection is the most complete we've seen in the series, without the memory loss and personality shift shown in Dondarion and Cat.



*A related theory: Coldhands is Benjen Stark, a warg, though perhaps a latent warg. He was killed by the White Walkers and (perhaps simply instinctively) warged into a nearby animal, perhaps the stag Coldhand is later seen riding. Benjen's body comes back to life as a wight. The Three-Eyed Crow eventually guides Benjen back into his old body: he effectively wargs himself to return to life.