461 replies to this topic

[aryagonnakill]

I fear we may have to see ghost die for Jon to live again.

[Tharvot]

I do not think Jon is dead.  Injured, sure, but not dead.

There have been several times when characters' chapters have ended in cliffhangers where you are lead to believe they might have died.  Tyrion has a few of these himself.

[KhalFrodo]

I honestly think that in the Prologue, Mel will see what has happened to  Jon and rally the Queens men to overthrow the NW with the help of the wildlings and Jon Snow loyalists. Shortly after the battle Mel and the wildlings receive word that Stannis has sacked WF. A random loyalist shouts out that Jon's body should be returned to WF to rest in the crypts with his kin.

Later in the book there could be a Jon POV(maybe the epilogue after the wall falls?) where his spirit looks down on his body and is joined by the Kings in the North/Lords of WF. He asks if he belongs there and is answered with a no. He looks sad and broken when out of the crowd Lyanna comes with Ned (whic at this point his bones have been returned as well). She tells him that he doesn't belong there because he is not a King in the North or a Lord of Winterfell. He is the King of Westeros and Lord of them all, he is the prince that was promised. As Jon looks around all the KotN and LoWF kneel before him. Magic of the Old gods if funneled from the heart tree and Jon is resurrected. Jon stands and unsheaths Longclaw and the blade lights up the crypts of WF with a dream of spring. BOOM!

Or Jon is going to become a wight, it's one or the other.

[IKE]

One of most frustrating and compelling elements I had with the RW is it happened as soon as 2/3 the way through aSoS, so like for rest of the book I felt this big hole where Cat chapters with news of Robb was suppose to be.  Jon dieing abruptly at the end of DWD, seems more like a pitstop in his arc opposed to an end without closure.  Rhllor led Mel to the wall for a reason, to revive him?

[CBroome1979]

Jon is going to die...Bran's phophetic dream in book 1 seems to point to this.  Paraphrase 'Jon was alone, and his skin grew cold and hard as the memory of all warmth left him'.  Plus the Varamyr prologue alludes to the fact that Jon wargs into Ghost.  I'd RATHER see him just be injured, just saying the evidence points to his death, warg, and revival at Mel's hands.  As for Mel rallying the Queen's Men to overthrow the Night's Watch, I think Wun Wun pulling Ser Patrek apart like a rag doll kind of screwed the pooch on that one.  I foresee one murderous wildling killing spree at the hands of Tormund, and wouldn't be surprised to see the NW and Queen's Men all dead by the first half of TWOW. Queen Selyse, Princess Shirene (sp?), and maybe Mel might join them.

[Tharvot]

CBroome1979, on 01 August 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Jon is going to die...Bran's phophetic dream in book 1 seems to point to this.  Paraphrase 'Jon was alone, and his skin grew cold and hard as the memory of all warmth left him'.  Plus the Varamyr prologue alludes to the fact that Jon wargs into Ghost.  I'd RATHER see him just be injured, just saying the evidence points to his death, warg, and revival at Mel's hands.  As for Mel rallying the Queen's Men to overthrow the Night's Watch, I think Wun Wun pulling Ser Patrek apart like a rag doll kind of screwed the pooch on that one.  I foresee one murderous wildling killing spree at the hands of Tormund, and wouldn't be surprised to see the NW and Queen's Men all dead by the first half of TWOW. Queen Selyse, Princess Shirene (sp?), and maybe Mel might join them.

I do not see Tormund leading a killing spree.  Maybe in retribution for Jon Snow's attackers?  More than anything, I see the queens men and NW getting overrun by the white walkers and getting wiped out that way.  I see Tormund & co fleeing.

I guess im just kind of sick of the undead element of the books.  UnCat, UnGregor, UnVictarion(?), Dondarrion...too much revival makes it kind of hokey.

[CBroome1979]

I'm thinking more that Tormund and the wildlings will attack the murdering F-tards on the NW, and the rest of the NW at Castle Black will defend them out of habit and duty, if nothing else.  Queen's men I'm assuming will join with NW just because of their prejudices against them, and the Wun Wun issue.  There will be alot of dead bodies (freshly dead) at Castle Black.  This will help pave the way for the Others to smash the Wall at Castle Black.

[Sinslash]

I'm thinking, Jon will die. Mel will resurrect him similar to Thoros resurrecting Beric or Beric resurrecting Cat. Jon will plunge his Longclaw into Mel, killing her, and somehow causing Longclaw to flame up. Then he will be Azor Ahai.
When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt...
It's possible:
red star = Mel
smoke = Jon's wounds
salt = Bowen Marsh's tears
Also, Lightbringer was forged three times. Longclaw underwent two changes so far. First, Mormont bear. Second, direwolf for Jon. Maybe the third will be from stabbing Melisandre, turning it into Lightbringer.

Edited by Sinslash, 01 August 2012 - 05:27 PM.

[KhalFrodo]

My problem with the Queens men joining the NW is that Mel is the undisputed leader of that group. I don't see her teaming up with the Jon Snow's murderers.

[JonBran]

I like the idea that Jon's soul will warg to Ghost. Then I am reminded that GRRM breaks hearts and Ghost will have to die inorder for Jon to be resurrected.

[gogorath]

There's a lot more than just the prologue that hints at Jon's consciousness entering into Ghost.  I'm rereading Dance right now and Jon I has a couple more hints as well.  In particular, Jon wonders if any of the dead Bran and Rickon are living on in their wolves.  Heck, even Ghost's name can be construed as a hint.

There's also a lot of talk of freezing bodies in the ice -- it's not hard to see that playing a role.

One thing I don't think is likely is any POVs-as-spirits, or Jon meeting ancestors or anything like that.  There's a rising level of magic, but it's completely off-tone of this series to have actively conscious spirits or ghosts.  Visions, sure.  Explained collective memory of trees in unclear, uncontrolled flashbacks.

But Lyanna appearing to Jon and telling him things like Obi Wan Kenobi?  No, that's decidedly off tone to me.

[rygar]

aryagonnakill, on 27 July 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

I think you've got the jist of it, Mel's vision of Jon becoming ghost and then himself again is another indicator.  I'd diverge from your theory when you get to the crypts. I think we will learn about Jon's parents via Howland Reed.  I think if the crypts come into play it will either be some actual Stark ghost's kicking some serious Bolton ass, or Bran telling Stannis via weirwood that there is a secret way into Winterfell via the crypts.  I'm also open to the possibility that Jon will be in Ghost for a short while and go North as Ghost to find Benjen or something. I read some nice posts in regards to that theory, but I still think its more likely we'll learn about the far north via Bran.

stannis doesnt need to hear from Bran.  Stannis will have access to rickan once the onion knight acquires him.  Also, he has Theon and i bet you Theon will give up that information

[aryagonnakill]

rygar, on 02 August 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

stannis doesnt need to hear from Bran.  Stannis will have access to rickan once the onion knight acquires him.  Also, he has Theon and i bet you Theon will give up that information

Where would Rickon get the knowledge of a secret passage into Winterfell? Unless Luwin told Osha before they left and that was the gap there.  It's possible but Bran seems more likely if there actually is a secret passage and Stannis finds out about it. Theon doesn't know either.

[bemused]

I don't think Stannis would be the one using the secret passage ,if it exists. I don't think he would need to use it , though someone might... If he sends his sword back to WF, he could be disguised among the men that get let in , or they could open the gate to let him in.

[Ribupr]

This is kind of off topic but.....Do the Others seem smart to anyone else? And that they could possibly sense things?

They placed 2 wights near castle black so they could rise again and kill Mormont and Jon Snow to create distress in the Nights Watch. I think they didn't kill Jon because of Ghost. That leads me to think the Others might sense Jon is Azor Ahai reborn. I get killing Mormont, but not Jon, unless you knew that he could be the reincarnation of what stopped them before. It is kind of thin but it makes sense to me.

[lostcause]

I am as clueless as the next as to how Jon will be resurrected.

However I do think that if he's dead and then raised, he will be in the same condition as Coldhands.

Beric and UnCat are results of raisings done by believers of the Red God. I'm thinking Coldhands is the same, just done by the Old Gods, as will Jon be.

[Elrond Hubbard]

I wonder what would happen if Melisandre tried to resurrect Jon Snow while Jon's spirit was warged to Ghost.  Perhaps the ritual would go horribly wrong, and Jon's soulless body reanimates as the Night's King?  Then finding Ghost and returning Jon's soul to his body will be key to destroying the Night's King and fulfilling the prophecy of Azor Ahai Reborn.

I know the more popular fan theory is Stannis will become the Night's King, but this is A Song of Ice and Fire, after all.  The climax being a great war between the dragon of ice and the dragon of fire would be fitting, wouldn't it?

Edited by Elrond Hubbard, 03 August 2012 - 08:36 AM.

[Jayce]

Regardless of how this happens I hope he visits the Winterfell crypts as Ghost.

[woze]

I think other people have already mentioned this long ago but I assume he is already warged to Ghost just from his last few paragraphs in the POV chapter.

"In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took
him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …"

It's his POV and we know there is a fourth knife stab which he did not feel so he must have seen it. Other people have pointed out that he probably saw it while he's in Ghost. I suspect Mel will try to heal his body while he's warged into ghost or his body will be taken over by a wight and then he'll fight the wight for control of his body once he tries to return from Ghost.

The first theory is more likely.

The second is the crackpot

I don't really see any other ways out than those 2.

[bemused]

I think there's actually a very good likelihood that the fourth blow never fell. And I don't think Jon would have had to see the fourth knife... not even through Ghost.

When we've read POVs of the Starks in their wolves ,their consciousness is that of the wolf. They see thing in non-human terms . He whispers "Ghost.."..well they are bonded, even if Jon hasn't learned to fully utilize the bond, and Ghost has come to his aid before..and he's recently been warned repeatedly to keep Ghost near...but I think the rest of that passage sounds like Jon's thinking , not Ghost's. Ghost wouldn't think Stick 'em with the pointy end, e.g. ... If pain washed over him from Ghost's POV ,it would be Ghost's pain.

However , Jon has often taken note of Bowen and who's with him... Just previous to the attack, Jon noticed his little clique in the sheildhall  .. Bowen himself ,Wick Whittlestick , Left Hand Lew , and Alf of Runnymudd. Four of them.... Outside , he sees Wick and Bowen attack him, feels a third blow from behind , and would logically expect a fourth to follow...He never feels the fourth blow ( the blow he was expecting ) , but the narrative goes on to say he feels the cold..So Jon is still capable of feeling, at that point ..We don't actually know if he loses consciousness right then, or not..and we won't know for at least two years. ( Dang it !)

Yes , I think any number of things could have happened  to interrupt the conspirator's attack ( maybe ghost showing up or someone else stepping in ) .. But I think there could also be another simpler answer. I think the third blow most likely came from Left Hand Lew ( if so, assuming he was directly behind Jon, might being left handed have messed with his aiming for anything vital ? Just asking , IDK..) . Then, we've already seen how ,in the sheildhall , Othell and his builders distance themselves from Bowen and co. ( perhaps already thinking the conspiracy's started going too far.)

Keeping that in mind , Alf of Runnymudd is a Queen's man. We know he blames Jon for the death of his probable lover, Garth Greyfeather , and Alf might be right there with Bowen in his heart, ( and if there was no one around to see ), but he had to know he'd be putting all of Selyse's party "in it" if he struck a blow publicly... What with that and Ser Patrek being torn limb from limb right there at the same time , Alf might well have decided not to take part, after all.

Edited by bemused, 03 August 2012 - 05:24 PM.