461 replies to this topic

[Mace Cooterian]

kissdbyfire, on 08 December 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

What it would certainly create is a whole lot more death, destruction, and slaughter for all including the smallfolk, from the Haunted Forest to Dorne. I don't really think this is where Martin is going. Have you watched/read any of his interviews?

I currently browse the SSM updates but would be quick to acknowledge that I am not as up to date with his responses to questions being posed from aavid readers.  In a stupid sort of sense, I'm waiting on what he publishes.  Silly me.

As you have correctly retorted about the death and destruction; I too hold that this is not where the story ends.  I'm not advocating a "winner take all" scenario.  My hope is that the story ends with a harmony, or balance in Westeros.  I don't think it has to be a winner take all with regards to ice an dfire.  It will be song of ice and fire.;

[TheCurio]

I for one would not mind to see things go terribly (or rather deadly) wrong for everybody in Westeros with the epilouge being the last bastion of human kind falling in the Seven Kingdoms. It would break the common mold of all is well at the end and still the balance would be upheld as Essos would represent the Fire and Westeros the Ice.

Edited by TheCurio, 09 December 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[DarkStark]

What if the Others bring Jon back to life? Not as a wight, but not like Coldhands?

Okay, so Jon isn't "dead", so what if the Others "heal" Jon Snow?

Or, Jon Snow makes a bargain with the Others?

I dunno. It may seem like a rambling, but the fact that there must be always a Stark in Winterfell, to ME it seems like the Stars and the Others have SOME common ground.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Others have something to do with Jon's "ressurection".

Kings of Winter.

[Zombie]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

GRRM has established, and even Melisandre has pointed out, Jon Snow is a man who lives by his word and honor, much like Ned.  Now while Jon believes he has broken his vows with Ygritte, I do not remember them getting married or her giving birth.  Heck, he technically hasn't won any glory either since he got stabbed before he could but I think we all know he is destined to wear a crown, so this must be addressed.  At some point when he reflects on his time with Ygritte again, I think he can justify that he has not broken his oath.  I argue that up until now, he has done absolutely nothing to have broken his vows to the NW sworn to/by the Old Gods.  The only way to truly "free" Jon Snow is death, it's in the damn vows: It shall not end until my death .... I shall live and die at my post. That is why I do not think he is just hurt and will be healed, he needs to be dead for step one.

Nobody knows how Jon will be brought back, but it is fun to speculate since it seems pretty likely he will. I think it is possible that the unCat theory may happen since it has merit.  It fits quite well, and the only counter-argument I've heard to it is that unCat is too far off in the riverlands and has no reason to head back north since she's too busy killing Freys and dealing with Jamie/Brienne.  Suppose Theon convinces Stannis not to kill him and word spreads that the turncloak is alive and being protected by Stannis, or maybe Theon is even allowed to take the black to pay for his lesser crimes.  UnCat would fly north so fast to get her perceived revenge for Bran and Rickon where she finally learns they are NOT dead, and how she begins to realize she has been consumed by her revenge.  UnCat then learns R+L=J (Howland appearance somewhere maybe?) and that Jon Snow has been kept in some ice cellar that preserves him or maybe Melisandre even intervenes in protecting the body of Jon Snow.  I do hope a resurected Jon Snow has blue eyes if only because that would be cool.

I used to think the fate of unCat was to be so consumed by her desire for revenge that a tearful FM grants unCat the gift, with her last image being her conceived dead daughter (Arya) freeing her.  I dunno I think both theories are possible.  Thoughts?

Edited by Zombie, 11 December 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[addicted to snow]

Zombie, on 11 December 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

I think we all know he is destined to wear a crown, so this must be addressed...  

Nobody knows how Jon will be brought back, but it is fun to speculate since it seems pretty likely he will.

I'm not real sure Jon will be interested in a crown... GRRM describes Jon's character as somewhat 'grey' from this point forward... I just don't see hime being interested in playing the game of thrones...

As to how Jon will be brought back, I think the Prologue to ADWD lays it all out, or at least half of it... assuming that you think Varamyr is a reliable narrator...

[Anima]

It may be a little stupid of me to ask but how can you spoil (title of the topic) the next book when it  hasn't come out yet? You don't know anything of what will happen to Jon in the TWOW. This is just crackpots and maybe some conjecture.

Edited by Anima, 12 December 2012 - 04:45 AM.

[Alasdair]

addicted to snow, on 11 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

I'm not real sure Jon will be interested in a crown... GRRM describes Jon's character as somewhat 'grey' from this point forward... I just don't see hime being interested in playing the game of thrones...

As to how Jon will be brought back, I think the Prologue to ADWD lays it all out, or at least half of it... assuming that you think Varamyr is a reliable narrator...

He may not be interested in the crown but if R+L=J comes to pass (which I am almost certain it will), he will then be a better claimant than Dany and dependent on age gap (can't remember Aegon's age at his "death") maybe even a better claim than him. Now with this in mind and his aforementioned honor and his respect for duty instilled by Ned (his uncle). I believe his taking the throne would be nothing to do with wanting it. Also I for one want to see Kind Jon I of Targ/Stark would be cool.

[Cold Pie]

Anima, on 12 December 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

It may be a little stupid of me to ask but how can you spoil (title of the topic) the next book when it  hasn't come out yet? You don't know anything of what will happen to Jon in the TWOW. This is just crackpots and maybe some conjecture.

The TWOW Sample Chapters, possibly.

[Nick Baratheon]

i don´t like the Melisandre= Nissa Nissa part. Or does Jon love Melisandre the way Azor Ahai did Nissa Nissa ?

[Cold Pie]

Zombie, on 11 December 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

UnCat would fly north so fast to get her perceived revenge for Bran and Rickon where she finally learns they are NOT dead, and how she begins to realize she has been consumed by her revenge. UnCat then learns R+L=J (Howland appearance somewhere maybe?) and that Jon Snow has been kept in some ice cellar that preserves him or maybe Melisandre even intervenes in protecting the body of Jon Snow.  I do hope a resurected Jon Snow has blue eyes if only because that would be cool.

It's certainly possible for Cat to head north and when she's there find out that they're alive, but to Howland to appear, and tell her? I doubt that. She may find herself at the wall at some point though.

Zombie, on 11 December 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

I used to think the fate of unCat was to be so consumed by her desire for revenge that a tearful FM grants unCat the gift, with her last image being her conceived dead daughter (Arya) freeing her.

I don't really see a reason to why someone would send a FM to kill UnCat. Sure, she's a problem, but a couple of knights could do that without impoverishing that lords house.

Lord Starkatheon, on 12 December 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

i don´t like the Melisandre= Nissa Nissa part. Or does Jon love Melisandre the way Azor Ahai did Nissa Nissa ?

Some people argue that Ygritte could take the Nissa Nissa role for Jon. Though his arrow didn't kill her the, fact that he told the Nights Watch so they could prepare for an assault, did.

[The Giver]

A lot of people who support UnCat reviving Jon have talked about her changing her mind when she finds out that R+L=J (if it's true). People seem to feel that it would be fitting because she hated Jon for Ned's transgression, but when she finds out that he's not Ned's son, she'll change her mind about him.

I think it would be better poetically if she changed her mind about Jon BEFORE finding out that R+L=J. I think it would make for a better relationship that in the end she came to care for him for the person he is and not for who his parents were.

My personal feelings anyway. I don't know that I like UnCat reviving him, I'm not sure if R+L=J is true, and I hope Jon didn't actually die either, but if those three do happen, I hope she tries to save him before she finds out who he really is.

[armidil0]

Cold Pie, on 12 December 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

It's certainly possible for Cat to head north and when she's there find out that they're alive, but to Howland to appear, and tell her? I doubt that. She may find herself at the wall at some point though.
I don't really see a reason to why someone would send a FM to kill UnCat. Sure, she's a problem, but a couple of knights could do that without impoverishing that lords house.Some people argue that Ygritte could take the Nissa Nissa role for Jon. Though his arrow didn't kill her the, fact that he told the Nights Watch so they could prepare for an assault, did.

Nobody would send a FM, she might break off and go to the Riverlands herself to find Nymeria.
Ygritte is not Nissa Nissa. She would be just one of the failed sacrifices. Here is a very small thread about Lightbringer that talks about Ygritte and her role.

[Zombie]

addicted to snow, on 11 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

I'm not real sure Jon will be interested in a crown... GRRM describes Jon's character as somewhat 'grey' from this point forward... I just don't see hime being interested in playing the game of thrones...

I agree that Jon will most likely only be concerned with the threat to the North if brought back.  But even Robert Baratheon would point out he never wanted the Iron Throne, but that didn't stop others from putting him there.  I think the same will apply to Jon Snow.  And without him dying first, he can never wear a crown is my point.

Cold Pie, on 12 December 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

It's certainly possible for Cat to head north and when she's there find out that they're alive, but to Howland to appear, and tell her? I doubt that. She may find herself at the wall at some point though.

I didn't say Howland Reed specifically tells unCat. The way I envision it, it is more like with word of Jon Snow being death spreading, Howland Reed may finally be willing to tell someone (maybe even a heart tree) what truly transpired that day since the secret/promise no longer protects anybody with Jon Snow dead.  Then whoever he tells may then in course spread the word which unCat hears and puts together the puzzle of why Ned has protected Jon and kept him close all this time.  I think it's reasonable to assume something so juicy in terms of gossip and importance to the seven kingdoms would not be kept quiet for long.

But I think The Giver makes a good point, it would be better if unCat did change her mind about Jon Snow before finding out R+L=J is true, but realistically, Catelyn doesn't seem the type of person to do that in my opinion.  To me, Catelyn is the embodient of House Tully's words: Family. Duty. Honor.  Catelyn's primary actions are usually direct steps to protect her family, and until she has a reason to finally consider Jon Snow family, she would never sacrifice herself for him.

Cold Pie, on 12 December 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

I don't really see a reason to why someone would send a FM to kill UnCat. Sure, she's a problem, but a couple of knights could do that without impoverishing that lords house.Some people argue that Ygritte could take
the Nissa Nissa role for Jon. Though his arrow didn't kill her the, fact that he told the Nights Watch so they could prepare for an assault, did.

I suppose calling Arya a true FM would be inaccurate since even during her training, the FM accuse her of being a wolf and Arya of House Stark who would kill for her own means.  She may be an apprentice, but I can't be the only reader who expects her to head back to Westeros at some point.  I was just offering a possible alternative to the fate of unCat.  It was an old theory of mine that seems to be less and less likely.

Pretty much everything I've said is just theory and speculation, I've never denied that.  Personally, I believe it is a sign of amazing writing when a story can inspire so much fun speculation and still leaves so many different paths the author can take without becoming too predictable.  Dear GRRM, want more story NOW~!

[Imjustababydirewolf]

I don't think Jon is dead.  Gravely wounded? Yes.  Put in the ice? Yes.  I think he wargs into Ghost.  I think he has visions like Bran.  Then, when he has been healed enough by the wildings (please not Mel), I think he will wake up.  When he does, I think he (and we) will know more about who he is, more about what he is, and more about what he needs to do.  This can really push the story forward rapidly (and let's face it, it needs to get moving to be finished in 2 books).  Is he AA or the PtwP?  Who knows.  Lightbringer?  Who cares.  I would be very disappointed if we get an UnJon as I hate those characters (except for Dondarrion; he was cool in that he happened mostly off page in an almost mythically manner -- even though he was "real").  I would also be very disappointed if Jon is well and truly dead.  I certainly hope he has more to add to the story, and I do not think he can do that as Ghost.  I also hope Bowen and Co. get what they deserve.

[addicted to snow]

Jon Snow's character is changing (as per GRRM). The result will not be someone that you would want to see sitting on a thrown.

After reading book I, it seemed very obvious that R+L=J. After reading the rest of the books, it became obvious that GRRM creates mysteries that are much deeper & much more complex than R+L=J...

[Runaway Penguin]

addicted to snow, on 13 December 2012 - 03:10 AM, said:

Jon Snow's character is changing (as per GRRM). The result will not be someone that you would want to see sitting on a thrown.

"Kill the boy, let the man rise."
Yes, his character is changing. It changed pretty significantly already the moment he was elected LC. He has much more responsibility, does hard but justified decisions, sends people to their death... Far cry from naive idealistic lad who joined NW.
Does this make him more "grey"? Hell yes.
Does it make him less suitable for any position of power? Hell no, in fact completely opposite. You need to be quite a big bit of corkscrew to rule well. Robert and Ned were as straightforward and honest as possible, look how that ended

[Anima]

Alasdair, on 12 December 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

He may not be interested in the crown but if R+L=J comes to pass (which I am almost certain it will), he will then be a better claimant than Dany and dependent on age gap (can't remember Aegon's age at his "death") maybe even a better claim than him. Now with this in mind and his aforementioned honor and his respect for duty instilled by Ned (his uncle). I believe his taking the throne would be nothing to do with wanting it. Also I for one want to see Kind Jon I of Targ/Stark would be cool.

You would like to see it. "it would be cool". This is exactly why you'll never see it (or at least not at all the way you describe it). Most people naturally want the good and cool thing to happen. But good and cool are not GRRM's style.

[Lannister Hamster]

How is Jon who'd be Rhaegar's bastard a better claim than Aegon his trueborn son?

[mrlukeduke]

Supposing that Jon's bastardy was pardoned by Stannis (who has already offered it), that could make Jon's claim stronger although not necessarily stronger than an authentic, trueborn Aegon's. I think the only way Jon ever gets a look in – assuming his alleged 'Targaryen secret' is even discovered (which IMO it won't ever be) – is being pardoned by a true Targaryen King. And there aren't any (yet), and even if there were, I doubt they'd want any challenges to their own or their children's.

So a Stannis pardon would probably be worth jack squat anyway, even if Stannis became King proper (sat the Iron Throne and did it). Jon's screwed basically. And the Heart Tree marriage speculation about Rhaegar/Lianna requires a heck of a lot of vague what-ifs and maybes.

Maybe if Jon and Danaerys 'got it on' they could garner the support they needed by force or guile. But that would be such a corny, vomit-inducing ending. And I reckon Jon wouldn't want the throne anyway. He's too much like Ned in that respect, even with a sudden character shift post-stabbing.

Edited by mrlukeduke, 13 December 2012 - 09:24 AM.

[mrlukeduke]

Although I suppose ultimately the best claim to the throne isn't a technical or legal issue, it's a political one, and politics is based on violence and propaganda. He who can fight and con the best wins.

Edited by mrlukeduke, 13 December 2012 - 09:30 AM.