461 replies to this topic

[K1T]

Roza Ahai, on 23 January 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

They both will be in the Red Keep by the end of the last book.

or Winterfell

[Nelapsi]

TheWhiteRabbit, on 21 January 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Because this is how I feel: if Arya, after everything she's been through, becomes an assassin, and her first major job is to kill the mother of dragons and dies in the attempt I will feel like her whole story was a complete waste. If you can't tell she's my favorite character, so I might be a little biased, but I want her to be one of the last people standing when all is said and done.

This. she is among my favs since the very beginning, and I totally agree. She MUST do something great and unespected that would justify her being still alive and wandering around Westeros and now training with the FM. It would be as big a disappointment as Dany not making it to Westeros.

[The Killer Snark]

Daenarys has to do something, surely. She's been one of my favourites from the start but her unfeasibly slow story arc in ADoD reminded me a lot of the overly static build up (for the first four fifths of the novel) of Chapterhouse Dune.

[danceparty]

Since reading the books I have watched the series and looked for hints possibly about the last books because the producers have been told the general ending and plots to get there, thus they might be setting things up very early.  I was intrigued by Mel in the scene back on Dragonstone when she is so adamant that she saw Stannis crowned and is AA.  If speculation is true that Jon will become AA then could Stannis somehow be involved in Jon's resurrection?  Such as he is sacrificed or Jon occupies his body?  Just a crackpot theory after watching a scene.

[Ser Grimes]

He isn't dead.

[The Killer Snark]

Here's my theory on the overall Jon arc. First of all, he isn't dead, but he's surely physically dead. The reason he escapes feeling the fourth knife is because he's warged into Ghost. Ghost escapes and joins AryaNymeria on The Riverlands. They both have a part to play with their pack on the siege on Winterfell. Jon is physically missing as a person for much of the remainder of the series, but at some point Aegon either dies and Bran's agency somehow wargs Jon permanently into someone else's body to marry Daenarys, or Aegon himself becomes an antagonist and Jon is warged into him, to do the same.

This all might sound a bit far fetched, but let me bore people first with resuscitating evidence I came up with by myself on how L and R equals J.

Lyanna Stark appears to have been ravished by Rhaegar (though this is uncharacteristic of the character), or actually fell in love with him. She appears to have died in childbirth. Ned adopts Jon and is the type to accept the blame in order to preserve the memory of his sister's virtue. Either Ned or Brandon had had an affair with Ashara Dayne that we now know resulted in a stillborn girl. Ned would have kept that one a secret anyway, if it was him, on account of Ashara's suicide. The other parentage claim in the books is anticlimactic and specious, so can be ignored.

Daenarys represents Fire and Jon represents Ice. Both of their POVs in AdwD are almost always right next to each other. The Targaryen is twinned with the half-Targaryen, so unlike the shock of The Red Wedding, which at least makes logical sense in moving the series forward, Jon's full death would seem to indicate no narrative sense at all.

Now, the reason Jon physically resembles the Starks is because the Targaryen physical gene appears to be recessive. None of the characters who claim Targaryen ancestry physically resemble them, a more than probable reason why they were used to intermarrying in order to keep their blood pure, though this resulted on occasion in a gallery of the mad.

That above point is why I think it's appropriate why Jon would be morphed into Aegon at the end.

Also, and I take no credit for the following statement, but someone else once said this and I believe them - I think Jon will be the rider of Viserion at some point.

Edited by Iain Robb, 26 January 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[Roza Ahai]

Iain Robb, on 26 January 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

Bran's agency somehow wargs Jon permanently into someone else's body to marry Daenarys, or Aegon himself becomes an antagonist and Jon is warged into him, to do the same.

Warging into a human is considered  an abomination. Dany is his aunt. Marrying her would be an incest. Jon grew up in the North, where incest is not that popular as in the South or beyond the Wall.

[kissdbyfire]

Roza Ahai, on 26 January 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Warging into a human is considered  an abomination. Dany is his aunt. Marrying her would be an incest. Jon grew up in the North, where incest is not that popular as in the South or beyond the Wall.

Is considered an abomination = words are wind - each situation must be assessed individually, imo. It's like the vows, or should one never really break them? BS - remember what Jaime told the other KG? "If the king ask you to saddle his horse, do it; it he asks you to kill his horse, come to me" (paraphrasing). Not ever breaking any vow or rule under any circumstance leads to the inevitable "I was just following orders" (fulfilling my vows, etc). I don't think that's where Martin is going...

As to incest, it is not popular beyond the Wall. Craster is the only one we know of that is into it, and he's not held in high regard by the free folk. Remember what Ygritte told Jon?

ASoS, Jon


“There’s been no one,” he confessed. “Only you.”
“A maid,” she teased. “You were a maid.”
He gave her closest nipple a playful pinch. “I was a man of the Night’s Watch.” Was, he heard himself say. What was he now? He did not want to look at that. “Were you a maid?”
Ygritte pushed herself onto an elbow. “I am nineteen, and a spearwife, and kissed by fire. How could I be maiden?”
“Who was he?”
“A boy at a feast, five years past. He’d come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t’ try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once.”
“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.
She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”
“Longspear’s not your brother.”
“He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”
“Craster weds his daughters,” Jon pointed out.
She punched him again. “Craster’s more your kind than ours.

[The Killer Snark]

Of course, I might be wrong and Aegon as Rhaegar's son becomes the rider of Rhaegal, but I'm under the impression that the reader is meant to think of Aegon as a late pretender, and I don't believe, unless he does something truly heroic, he'll stay alive until the end.

It is even not impossible that 'rider' can be taken metaphorically and Rhaegal will be warged by Bran, who as a Leto II styled human in a treesuit, and a greenseer, represents the colour green.

Edited by Iain Robb, 26 January 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Wow I never thought about the dragons when Bloodraven told Bran he would fly, but I can completely see it now, especially if Aegon is Feagon. You need a third rider. Bloodraven was a Targ, so yes, Bran does seem a likely candidate. But I really don't want to see Jon warg into Feagon in order to become human again. I think it would be much more climatic if he was reborn in his own body--if indeed he is dead.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit, 26 January 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[Nelapsi]

TheWhiteRabbit, on 26 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Wow I never thought about the dragons when Bloodraven told Bran he would fly, but I can completely see it now, especially if Aegon is Feagon. You need a third rider. Bloodraven was a Targ, so yes, Bran does seem a likely candidate. But I really don't want to see Jon warg into Feagon in order to become human again. I think it would be much more climatic if he was reborn in his own body--if indeed he is dead.

Bloodrave wargs ravens by hundreds. For me, he might talk about birds when he says Bran will fly. He might warg a dragon, but IMO he was only talking about ravens.

[Mace Cooterian]

TheWhiteRabbit, on 26 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Wow I never thought about the dragons when Bloodraven told Bran he would fly, but I can completely see it now, especially if Aegon is Feagon. You need a third rider. Bloodraven was a Targ, so yes, Bran does seem a likely candidate. But I really don't want to see Jon warg into Feagon in order to become human again. I think it would be much more climatic if he was reborn in his own body--if indeed he is dead.

Nelapsi, on 26 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Bloodrave wargs ravens by hundreds. For me, he might talk about birds when he says Bran will fly. He might warg a dragon, but IMO he was only talking about ravens.

I'm going with Nelpasi on this one about the ravens.  It is also important to remember that when you bring up the subject of dragons; GRRM said himself that he wan't even going to put them into the series, but was convinced at the last moment.  I take this to mean that they are (were) an afterthought.  My personal feeling on this is that there will be nobody riding a dragon to melt White Walkers.  IMHO, I don't see this happening.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Mace Cooterian, on 27 January 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

I'm going with Nelpasi on this one about the ravens.  It is also important to remember that when you bring up the subject of dragons; GRRM said himself that he wan't even going to put them into the series, but was convinced at the last moment.  I take this to mean that they are (were) an afterthought.  My personal feeling on this is that there will be nobody riding a dragon to melt White Walkers.  IMHO, I don't see this happening.

Really? What do you think the dragons will be doing when the realm confronts the others then? The dragons may have been an afterthought when he first put them in but since then they have become  kind of central to the storyline. Countless characters besides Danny have been effected by the dragons. And it seems like dragons get brought up all the time. I think it would be very odd if they don't play a role in the saga's climactic battle unless they die for some reason before it happens. Maybe there won't be riders or warging though.

[The Killer Snark]

The dragons will definitely be of importance. Martin never wanted to use them at first because of the wish to avoid a Fantasy cliche. But the cliche was turned on its head somewhat and he decided it was best to run with it. White walkers = Ice and dragons = Fire. But I don't see all of the dragons being alive up to the end.

[ViserionsFire]

Ser Grimes, on 25 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

He isn't dead.

When Dany was pregnant and injured, MMD healed her using some form of magic.  MMD was trained by Marwyn.  Perhaps Marwyn was trained by practitioners of R'hllor and shared that with MMD.  Next we know, at Drogo's pyre, Dany walks into the flames and isn't burned by fire.  Could it be that Jon is also healed using the magic of R'hllor and in some way survives some test of extreme cold.

[bemused]

No, MMD killed her child...

I'm waiting to know more about Marwyn... but the impression I got was that of an exchange..She learned something from him and he learned something from her.. Whether the knowledge was put to a constructive or destructive use is another question .

The same question is raised by the Marwyn / Qyburn connection.

[The Killer Snark]

Anyway, Maester Marwyn is off towards Essos to meet Daenarys. Samwell has been ordered by Marwyn back to The Wall, and wouldn't have learned anything about sorcery. Plus, if MMD had learned something of 'blood magic' from Marwyn (observing what happened to Khal Drogo), that wouldn't be any use on Jon.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

Be warned crackpot ahead.

So BR is an Albino with white skin, and red eyes, with a mark on his cheek.

Ghost has white fur, red eyes, and marks on his face(the eagle attack).

Assuming that's a sign they will cross paths, and Jon does warg Ghost. He goes north of the Wall to the weirwood. Bran communicates with him and tells him to come to where he is.

Would it be all to convient for him to have a possibly brain dead kid in a cave nearby?

Jojen could be heading for a coma. Which could lead to lose of brain function(don't know if that affects warging).

Jon does the "no no" and wargs Jojen.

[ViserionsFire]

Iain Robb, on 27 January 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Anyway, Maester Marwyn is off towards Essos to meet Daenarys. Samwell has been ordered by Marwyn back to The Wall, and wouldn't have learned anything about sorcery. Plus, if MMD had learned something of 'blood magic' from Marwyn (observing what happened to Khal Drogo), that wouldn't be any use on Jon.

Your correct in all that, but, there is already someone with red hair who has studied R'hllor already at the wall.  If she knows the magic that Moqorro used on Victarion, possibly the same magic that MMD used and the magic that Thoros used, then perhaps Jon will not have to warg into Ghost.  He could be given some healing  somewhere between Victarion's and Dondarrion's.

[Zman1863]

ViserionsFire, on 27 January 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Your correct in all that, but, there is already someone with red hair who has studied R'hllor already at the wall.  If she knows the magic that Moqorro used on Victarion, possibly the same magic that MMD used and the magic that Thoros used, then perhaps Jon will not have to warg into Ghost.  He could be given some healing  somewhere between Victarion's and Dondarrion's.

I've had similar thoughts. I think that the magical concepts introduced through such characters as Thoros, Dondarion, Stoneheart, Victarion and Moqorro seem to point to some sort of involvement of Melisandre in whatever happens to Jon next. When I first read the series I was a bit put off by the Thoros/Beric/Stoneheart stuff and confused as to how they fit in with the rest of the series. But after reading ADWD I can now see that those story lines might have been set up for a later major development.

I think it has been strongly hinted that Jon warged into Ghost in the assassination scene itself and because of the presence of Sixskins Prologue. But I think that being in Ghost will render Jon still earthbound and sentient will lead to a different sort of outcome than was seen with Thoros or Stoneheart. Lord Beric claimed that he felt less himself with each rebirth. Thoros's refusal to give Cat the kiss of life himself seems to imply that her altered personality has a lot to do with the fact that she had already been dead for days. But with Jon things are different because he is still himself in a way that neither of the other two were. For those reasons I wouldn't be surprised if Jon can come back and be relatively whole.

But I also agree with earlier comments that theorize that Bran's story will intersect with Jon's somehow. The connection between Jon and Ghost and the gods of the north is undeniable. It should also be noted that Melisandre has seen Bran and Bloodraven though she did not know who they were and thought the image as a glimpse of her enemy. I can't help but wonder if Jon's rebirth will utilize both the old gods and the red god. That wouldn't make Melisandre very happy, but I think we've already seen that some tough truths are creeping up on her. She'll have to face the truth about Stannis not being her savior eventually.