461 replies to this topic

[TheWhiteRabbit]

As I have stated before I really do not want to have to see Jon permanently warged into another human and finish the series as that character. That's just too weird. If it's temporary though while his body is preserved in the ice cells that's a different story. I can see him just being in ghost the whole time though until he's revived

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit, 27 January 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[Anzu]

addicted to snow, on 05 January 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I think Samwell Tarley is a more likely candidate for Azor... Jon's future will be totally different from what books 1-5 have lead readers to expect from Jon...

no if it isnt Jon then is prolly Gendry

[TheBastardofBluegrass]

poky, on 03 August 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

hey fellow soiaf fans,

I have just recently finish the a dwd and been down for a few days, lol. Jon Snow IS my favorite character so I am a little bump that he got stab four times at the end of dwd. So I started looking to see if GRRM had made any statement of jon in the next book but nothing, with that I would like to tell you my theory on how I want the next jon chapter to start.

Jon wakes up in his quarters and he realized that he is ghost and has warged. Then melisandre come in and says, "I told you so, you know nothing Jon Snow." Then they go out and see that the wildings and crows had a fight over the crows killing him. But the crows won since they took the wilding and jon off guard. So then they burn all the bodies to prevent them from turning wights. So ghost/jon watches as all the bodies including his own burn. However after all the fires are out, they see that jon's body is intact (like dany at the end of GoT) and healed of all wounds, the burn hand, hawk scratches and stabs. Then ghost/jon goes to the body and licks it and he raises in his original body and as he stands up ghost howls for the first time. Then, melisandre realizes that jon is AA. This also fit her visions of jon going from men to wolf to a men.

Moreover, since jon died he is not with the night's watch and can march south with a wilding army to retake winterfell and hopefully meet Howard Reed (who is looking for his children and is the hooded men who theon saw) and learn about R+L=J.

Also, this reminds me of harry potter who also had to died but came back "on." so instead of going to king's cross, jon will go to ghost before coming back or at least I hope.

Also, can someone tell me if melisandre is still pregnant or did she stop being pregnant when she gave birth to the shadow baby?

^This I love the idea of Ghost howling the first time at the sight of Jon dying or resurrecting, that'd be freaking epic

[Blackfyre Bob]

^ Agreed! That'd be pretty dope, as far as the whole Jon being revealed as a Targ... And a subtle way of letting the readers know it instead of saying it outright

[Areo Speedwagon]

danceparty, on 25 January 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Since reading the books I have watched the series and looked for hints possibly about the last books because the producers have been told the general ending and plots to get there, thus they might be setting things up very early.  I was intrigued by Mel in the scene back on Dragonstone when she is so adamant that she saw Stannis crowned and is AA.  If speculation is true that Jon will become AA then could Stannis somehow be involved in Jon's resurrection?  Such as he is sacrificed or Jon occupies his body?  Just a crackpot theory after watching a scene.

This relates more specifically to your sentence about Mel being adamant that Stannis is AA and the show.  It seems to me that Mel is a victim of the way she's asking the flames her question.  She never asks "show me Stannis Baratheon."  Instead, the only question we hear her ask is "show me Azor Ahai."  Then she sees nothing but snow.

In another thread we were wondering what Mel meant/how to interpret her warning to Stannis that he will betray "the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear," but we know what Stannis does in later books and that he doesn't really do any of that.  Maybe in a metaphorical sense, but beyond that...

But it she's seeing Jon in the flames and doesn't realize it, everything she says to Stannis makes perfect sense, and does happen to Jon.  In fact, a mere 10-15 minutes after this scene is when Jon kills Qhorin Halfhand.  Jon will betray his vow to the NW with Ygritte, he then betrayed the Wildlings by going back to the NW, and then he will seen by some to betray the NW itself in Dance when he let's the Wildlings south.

So basically we have Mel telling us everything Jon is going to do, but thinking it's going to happen to Stannis.  I think this might be a really backhanded clue that Jon = AA is true.

[The King of Worms]

firepoet, on 28 December 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

It wouldn't be ballsy. You can't knock off a major character without a satisfying conclusion just because you want to shock your reader.

I agree. It would be cheap shock value and have no point.

[The King of Worms]

Didn't Old Nan teach Bran that "The realms of Man are safe as long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch remain true."

So the men of the Night's Watch have not remained true. Night's Watch have fought and killed Night's Watch. Lord Mormont killed by his own men, and now Jon, the true Lord Commander murdered by his own men. Bowen's men wish to seal off the gates with ice and hide through winter keeping the rest of the food stores for themselves. They want to abandon their watch.

The Wall is full of old power, we know this... Melisandre, Aemon, Old Nan, all the wise characters tell us this. And Coldhands cannot go through the Wall. He needed Sam, a true brother of the night's Watch to pass through the door for him.
So basically I think that Jon dies and wargs into Ghost. When this happens, something happens to the Wall. The Wall starts breaking, ice starts sliding off of it. And all the night's watch and wildlings that die in the inevitable battle that happens start rising up right then and there like ice zombie apocalypse, including Jon's body.
The conclusion is that because of Bowen Marsh (one the dumbest characters in the books, yeah let me attack my young rival in front of everybody when all his wildling buddies are around duuhhrr...) and his prejudice against wildlings and fearfulness, wanting to hide and keep all the food for himself, the Wall totally falls and the Night's Watch ceases to exist, getting swarmed by others.

A ragtag group consisting of the new House Thenn tribe, former Night's Watch guys who were Jon's friends, random Stannis knights led by Melisandre, and wildlings led by Val and Tormund  are forced to flee south and work together to survive the relentless pursuit of of Jon Snow the Ice Body and his Night's Watch zombie horde.
Meanwhile, Jon lives inside of Ghost, powerless to prevent anything. Fortunately Bran's ghost finds him and teaches him how to jack back into his own body, and he re-enters his ice body and becomes a creature much like Coldhands.

[The Killer Snark]

As has been pointed out, it's likely that Jon, or at least his body, could be resurrected by Melisandre. I'd discounted that before on account of how badly resurrected characters are left off in these books: but Zman's point that it may be more successful if Jon has warged, because he's technically someplace still sentient, actually makes some sense.

Edited by Iain Robb, 30 January 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[Drogo_1]

I have read through most of this but I don't think anyone else has said anything close to my theory. ....

I believe Jon will warg into Ghost temporarily only to watch the others attack the wall and catch the NW off guard and unready. I think that Jon's stabbing relates to what Old Nan used to say " The wall is strong and will stand as long as the men of the nights watch stand true". "The Murder of the 2nd LC in a row, before he actually violates an oath will be what causes the wall to fail. I believe during this white walker/other attack Jon's body will be raised into a white walker, However, because he has warg'd into Ghost something will go wrong in the process. I think that Mel will come to the conclusion that Jon is AA and give him "the last kiss". Thus forcing Jon's soul from Ghost and back into his body which is now been raised by the white walkers and the lord of light. He will be a combination of the two. I came to this realization after re-reading ADWD for the 4th time. There is one particular dream that Jon has that is telling. He dreams he is atop the wall slaying the WW and Others armored in black ice and fighting with a burning sword. That dream is Martin foreshadowing that he will be a combination of the two. I do not think his stabbing was a glamour.

[TheBastardofBluegrass]

Anon - Jon, on 04 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

I have read through most of this but I don't think anyone else has said anything close to my theory. ....

I believe Jon will warg into Ghost temporarily only to watch the others attack the wall and catch the NW off guard and unready. I think that Jon's stabbing relates to what Old Nan used to say " The wall is strong and will stand as long as the men of the nights watch stand true". "The Murder of the 2nd LC in a row, before he actually violates an oath will be what causes the wall to fail. I believe during this white walker/other attack Jon's body will be raised into a white walker, However, because he has warg'd into Ghost something will go wrong in the process. I think that Mel will come to the conclusion that Jon is AA and give him "the last kiss". Thus forcing Jon's soul from Ghost and back into his body which is now been raised by the white walkers and the lord of light. He will be a combination of the two. I came to this realization after re-reading ADWD for the 4th time. There is one particular dream that Jon has that is telling. He dreams he is atop the wall slaying the WW and Others armored in black ice and fighting with a burning sword. That dream is Martin foreshadowing that he will be a combination of the two. I do not think his stabbing was a glamour.

That is very intriguing, afterall the title is A Song of Ice and Fire it would make sense that the hero would be of the two elements, being resurrected by Mel would add to that, even if his parentage is never revealed. As Martin has stated over and over again, the ultimate ending will be bittersweet, to that end I believe Jon will be sent back to slay the Others and wights, setting up Stannis to be the false AA; akin to LOTR when Gandalf was sent back to be what Saruman should have been.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

AHHHH!!!!!! I'm freaking out! What if Jon really is dead and his death was just meant to serve as the mechanism to bring the wall crashing down ("The wall will hold as long as the men of the nights watch remain true"). Oh I'd be so mad!

[The Bastard's Bastard]

Areo Speedwagon, on 28 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

This relates more specifically to your sentence about Mel being adamant that Stannis is AA and the show.  It seems to me that Mel is a victim of the way she's asking the flames her question.  She never asks "show me Stannis Baratheon."  Instead, the only question we hear her ask is "show me Azor Ahai."  Then she sees nothing but snow.

In another thread we were wondering what Mel meant/how to interpret her warning to Stannis that he will betray "the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear," but we know what Stannis does in later books and that he doesn't really do any of that.  Maybe in a metaphorical sense, but beyond that...

But it she's seeing Jon in the flames and doesn't realize it, everything she says to Stannis makes perfect sense, and does happen to Jon.  In fact, a mere 10-15 minutes after this scene is when Jon kills Qhorin Halfhand.  Jon will betray his vow to the NW with Ygritte, he then betrayed the Wildlings by going back to the NW, and then he will seen by some to betray the NW itself in Dance when he let's the Wildlings south.

So basically we have Mel telling us everything Jon is going to do, but thinking it's going to happen to Stannis.  I think this might be a really backhanded clue that Jon = AA is true.

me likey very mucho.

[The Killer Snark]

But how does anyone know for certain Azor Ahai isn't Daenarys? The detail of the obsidian sword might be a red herring, and the sword referred to in the prophecies might be metaphorical, i.e. a three-headed dragon. Think about it: Azor Ahai gave up his wife to create his wesapon whereas Daenarys chose to give up her brother. And she also fits all the other criteria for the reborn hero Melisandre sees early on. Also, Dany seems in some degree to have a natural immunity to fire.

Edited by Iain Robb, 06 February 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Arya_Ghostface]

What is dead may never die, on 26 July 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

pull his burning sword from the fire and plunge it into the heart of Mel

Mel looks to me like a person who has power, but doesn't know how to use it to its full extent. Maybe Jon will release the power from her in this way. That would be neat and tidy on GRRM's part.

[MtnLion]

Iain Robb, on 06 February 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Also, Dany seems in some degree to have a natural immunity to fire.

No.  No. No, Daenerys burns her hands in A Dance with Dragons.  GRRM has even said that Daenerys is not immune to fire, nor have any Targaryens ever been.  A lot of the Targaryens have died by fire, and all of them are cremated.

[The Killer Snark]

So how do you explain her survival from the pyre at the end of AGoT, along with her habit of bathing in scalding water? GRRM said her immunity was a one-term deal in an interview regarding this, but he might have been misleading the interviewer instead of giving away plot points later in the books. Anyway, whether Dany has been burnt before or no, she certainly seems to have a resilience only Melisandre can claim to have.

Edited by Iain Robb, 07 February 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[MtnLion]

Iain Robb, on 06 February 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

So how do you explain her survival from the pyre at the end of AGoT, along with her habit of bathing in scalding water. GRRM said her immunity was a one-term deal in an interview regarding this, but he might have been misleading the interviewer instead of giving away plot points later in the books. Anyway, whether Dany has been burnt before or no, she certainly seems to have a resilience only Melisandre can claim to have.

GRRM asked if the walk into the pyre didn't seem magical, before he noted that it was a one of type of thing.  I don't recall bathing in scalding water, unless you are referring to the screenplay, in which case you should also refer to the dragon egg on the brazier scene.  But, in truth Daenerys can be burned, though she may have an elevated tolerance for heat, which is sometimes exhibited by members of the Targaryen family.  There never has been a fireproof Targaryen, as evidenced by one of Daenerys' ancestors that claimed to be and drank wildfire to death.

Edited by MtnLion, 06 February 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[The Killer Snark]

Yes, but you never answered my question: how do you know that GRRM wasn't actually misleading the interviewer in case he blew plot-points of his own books?

[MtnLion]

Iain Robb, on 06 February 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Yes, but you never answered my question: how do you know that GRRM wasn't actually misleading the interviewer in case he blew plot-points of his own books?

And, you never acknowledged that Daenerys can be burnt, as evidenced in A Dance with Dragons.

[The Killer Snark]

Yes, she can be, naturally: but another character would be burnt worse.