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Jon Snow is NOT a Targaryen


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when was the other time this bed of blood was used?

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied.

Think there's a Cersei reference to it too but I can't seem to find it.

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Even if they practiced polygamy, a bastard is still a bastard. So he wouldn't be a Targaryen but could be named as Blackfyre or maybe Rivers? Either way Dany's claim to the throne is still stronger than Jon's and as I've said he might resurrect old problems.

not really, the Targaryen Kings are descended from Aegon's second wife.

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Even if they practiced polygamy, a bastard is still a bastard. So he wouldn't be a Targaryen but could be named as Blackfyre or maybe Rivers? Either way Dany's claim to the throne is still stronger than Jon's and as I've said he might resurrect old problems.

Well, no. If they practiced polygamy then they would be legally wed and Jon would not be a bastard.

And as I have already said, Blackfyre refers specifically to one Targaryen bastard, Daemon Blackfyre, and his descendants. It it not a generic name given to all Targ bastards.

And no, he wouldn't be Rivers. He'd be Waters or Snow based on the regions his parents are from, or possibly Sand based on where he was born.

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Even if they practiced polygamy, a bastard is still a bastard. So he wouldn't be a Targaryen but could be named as Blackfyre or maybe Rivers? Either way Dany's claim to the throne is still stronger than Jon's and as I've said he might resurrect old problems.

If they practiced polygamy, and Rhaegar had married Lyanna as his second wife, Jon would by a legitimate Targaryen as their child. He would not have taken precedence over Aegon for the throne, but he would be ahead of Viserys, Dany, and Rhaenys. Under these conditions, there is no way Dany would have a stronger claim to the throne by the Targaryen laws of succession.

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Even if they practiced polygamy, a bastard is still a bastard.

This doesn't make any sense. If they practiced polygamy, Jon would not be a bastard because they would have been married.

So he wouldn't be a Targaryen but could be named as Blackfyre or maybe Rivers? Either way Dany's claim to the throne is still stronger than Jon's and as I've said he might resurrect old problems.

Where are you getting the Rivers thing? I don't think you understand how bastard names work. Jon is a Snow because Ned acknowledged him and raised him in the North.

And if Jon is legitimate (see: Three Kingsguard staying at the Tower, GRRM confirming possible later instances of polygamy and Mormont's warged raven calling Jon "king!"), his claim is greater than Stormbrat's.

so it is possible that she could have died of complications months after childbirth? or that bed of blood was literal. and that she could have been stuffed with a knife by a soldier with orders?

In the books, "bed of blood" is a euphemism for childbirth.

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how would you know when Jon was born?

Martin has stated that Jon is "eight or nine months" older than Daenerys, and we are told in the story Daenerys is born "nine moons" or nine months after the flight from King's Landing (after hearing the news of the Battle of the Trident and shortly before the sack of King's Landing by Lannister troops. All of which means Jon was born around the time of the sack or about one month later - give or take a few weeks. He was conceived, therefore, at least some 3 to 4 months into the rebellion - well after Lyanna is "kidnapped" by Rhaegar. Unless Robert makes a secret hookup with Lyanna while she is in hiding with Rhaegar there is no way Robert fathered Jon with Lyanna. All of this is mentioned over and over in the R+L=J threads.

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If they practiced polygamy, and Rhaegar had married Lyanna as his second wife, Jon would by a legitimate Targaryen as their child. He would not have taken precedence over Aegon for the throne, but he would be ahead of Viserys, Dany, and Rhaenys. Under these conditions, there is no way Dany would have a stronger claim to the throne by the Targaryen laws of succession.

Precisely. I even asked GRRM a question in an online chat about reconciling Targaryen polygamy with the Faith of the Seven and his answer was "If you have some huge fire-breathing dragons, you can get people to accept a lot of things that they might otherwise have problems with."

http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/t5/Center-Stage/George-R-R-Martin-The-Books/td-p/167742/page/5?jump=true

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so it is possible that she could have died of complications months after childbirth? or that bed of blood was literal. and that she could have been stuffed with a knife by a soldier with orders?

If you are talking "bed of blood" as the birthing bed it wouldn't be months after the childbirth. It would be shortly after the birth (a very messy process leaving the bed bloody. A woman can bleed for up to roughly 6 weeks after, but being that she knows she's bleeding, she'd have something there to catch the blood. That much blood suggests the birthing time. And I think something like a knife wound would only be possible if you weren't assuming she had birthed a child. It seems unlikely that she'd have done both. If you are assuming she had a baby, the bloody bed is likely from childbirth.

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Even if they practiced polygamy, a bastard is still a bastard. So he wouldn't be a Targaryen but could be named as Blackfyre or maybe Rivers? Either way Dany's claim to the throne is still stronger than Jon's and as I've said he might resurrect old problems.

Blackfyre wasn't a Targaryen, because Aegon The Unworthy fathered many children and never legitimized them, this never actually refers to his reign. Also he sired many mistresses and didn't married none of them, only keeping them as concubines, due to Naerys (his wife) piety, and The Faith is against mutliple marriage by same person.

All of Great Bastards were legitimized on his deathbed a decree with both Daeron II and Bryden Rivers challenged and ultimately made it fall through.

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so it is possible that she could have died of complications months after childbirth? or that bed of blood was literal. and that she could have been stuffed with a knife by a soldier with orders?

Months after childbirth would be a bit of a stretch. There was the smell of blood in the room and she had a fever, so presumably she was hemorrhaging and had an infection - I don't think anyone would last for months in that conditions.

And the phrase 'bed of blood' seems to be connected solely to childbirth. If someone died of some other injury, even if they were bleeding to death in their bed, I do not believe that this would be referred to as their 'bed of blood'.

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What

Martin has stated that Jon is "eight or nine months" older than Daenerys, and we are told in the story Daenerys is born "nine moons" or nine months after the flight from King's Landing (after hearing the news of the Battle of the Trident and shortly before the sack of King's Landing by Lannister troops. All of which means Jon was born around the time of the sack or about one month later - give or take a few weeks. He was conceived, therefore, at least some 3 to 4 months into the rebellion - well after Lyanna is "kidnapped" by Rhaegar. Unless Robert makes a secret hookup with Lyanna while she is in hiding with Rhaegar there is no way Robert fathered Jon with Lyanna. All of this is mentioned over and over in the R+L=J threads.

what im saying is she didn't die with a bed of blood from childbirth that they were referring.

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My bad, I always take Rivers for Waters or vice versa.

Okay, not a Blackfyre. But how about the plot? What future awaits him now?

there are a lot of different options for Jon. He's the King Beyond the Wall who actually got wildlings past the wall, he has an ally in Stannis and he seemingly has won over the mountain clans.

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What

what im saying is she didn't die with a bed of blood from childbirth that they were referring.

But she did, even if it was figuratively. I don't understand the confusion. She had a fever (probably puerperal fever) when Ned found her in her "bed of blood" (read: her birthing bed) and it's implied that it was this fever that killed her.

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If you are talking "bed of blood" as the birthing bed it wouldn't be months after the childbirth. It would be shortly after the birth (a very messy process leaving the bed bloody. A woman can bleed for up to roughly 6 weeks after, but being that she knows she's bleeding, she'd have something there to catch the blood. That much blood suggests the birthing time. And I think something like a knife wound would only be possible if you weren't assuming she had birthed a child. It seems unlikely that she'd have done both. If you are assuming she had a baby, the bloody bed is likely from childbirth.

I tend to think that Lyanna's 'bed of blood' was not the bloody, gory image that some people seem to have of it. It was likely that she was cleaned up and not literally lying in blood. Sure she probably was hemorrhaging, but she would have had something there to soak it up.

The 'bed of blood' is a metaphor. It is a colloquial term that people in this world always equate with the child birthing bed.

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