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Jon is Glamour-ous

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#1 Lord of Insignificance

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:25 AM

This is me being optimistic:

The timing on the chapters are off, we know that Theon is being held by Stannis when Jon gets his Julius Ceasar moment. Theon has his fingers all messed up. What if Theon was glamoured as Jon, he would have difficulty reaching for his sword, he may also notice bloodloss differently than with his own body shape. Perhaps someone was glamoured as Jon? This could even be Mance.

Hey Jon, thanks for saving my kid, let me return the favor, you hold on to this ruby and go check out those crypts from your dreams, you pretend to be me and I will be you. Mance wuld love the idea of rolling with some wildlings south of the wall. Ghost would also be preoccupied elsewhere.

Now...let the tearing apart begin! :fencing:

#2 Lan the Clever

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:09 AM

And what of Jon's chapters in ADwD? This theory just can't be right.

#3 Franz95


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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:27 PM

Well... we've spent the whole book reading Jon's thoughts. Wouldn't that be a little hard to hide for GRRM?

Wait a second, are you trolling us?

#4 Ciazio



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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:04 AM

Wait a second, are you trolling us?

Indeed.... :smoking:

#5 Aeron Piemaker

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:56 PM

To be honest, this makes perfect sense. Ghost being a rebel, Jon caring more about the wildlings than himself.. I doubt he can play and sing as well as Mance though..

#6 Lion of Judah

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:32 PM

A bit too far fetched for me to believe this considering that there is no red priest with Stannis when Theon is found to do the glamouring.

#7 sandorsstranger



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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:05 AM

I had a crackpot moment where I thought that Jon could be a glamour, but didn't know who it really was and haven't found enough evidence to convince myself yet. I never considered it could be Theon though - will have to re-read and see if anything fits. There just seems to be a lot of things that aren't quite right in the lead up to the stabbing and Jon's reaction to the letter seems a little strange too. I still won't be too shocked if it's true.

#8 Elder Sister

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:11 AM

I don't care if you're trolling...it would be nice if he was okay.

I'm not a huge fan of Jon, but wasn't ready for his last chapter.

#9 Blackfyre Bob

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 07:45 AM

This is an interesting idea, but I don't think it's possible, especially when considering that his chapters are written from his perspective (to a degree).

#10 Serr Parker

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:04 AM

Interesting but I don't think it's true, Jon won't be dead though I'm certain of that

#11 Tharvot


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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:34 AM

The released Theon chapter in tWoW shows Theon is with Stannis, chained up at his camp. Kinda renders Theon being glamoured into Jon's likeness impossible for the stabbing incident.

JS isn't dead. He will survive the attack.

#12 vonstorm



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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:17 PM

To be honest, this makes perfect sense. Ghost being a rebel, Jon caring more about the wildlings than himself.. I doubt he can play and sing as well as Mance though..

The new King-Beyond-the-Wall ?

#13 Phostopheles


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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:04 PM

If only Theon were Reek AND Jon at the same time. Then at least I would find the Jon chapters interesting...

#14 Cold-King



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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:29 AM

Doubtful, why would we be reading a chapter through Jons POV, with his thoughts and the chapter either named something else, or us noticing something was different... far fetched indeedio!

#15 evita mgfs

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 01:49 AM

Arguments for the Glamorization of Jon Snow
It stands to reason that Martin’s Prologue POV in DWD foreshadows Jon Snow warging his Ghost as Varamyr Sixskins wargs One-Eye before he dies. If this is so, perhaps Martin’s disclosure about the nature of “glamors” in Arya’s POV when the Kindly Man distinguishes among the “faceless man’s” facial alterations, and the mummer’s artifice, and a sorcerer’s glamor. Likewise, Mel educates Jon Snow on the sorceress’s glamor demonstrating with a real live subject: Mel reveals that Mance Rayder is alive, only shrouded in a “glamor” to disguise him as Rattleshirt.
The KM in the HOB&W explains to Arya: “Mummers change their faces with artifice . . . and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with” (842-843). From these words, we can deduce that a glamor is an illusion, a magic trick achieved by weaving “light and shadow” - a “seeming” rather than a “reality”.
Consequently, Mel does “glamor” Jon Snow moments before, or as he is attacked by his black brothers of the Night’s Watch. Note that she “does not” shroud Jon Snow in the cloak of another, as she did Rattleshirt. Instead, Mel makes the stab wounds seep smoking blood for a dramatic effect, and perhaps the glamor even protects Jon from the fatal strikes. Jon Snow himself does not realize a magic glamor affects him, one that tricks the NW into believing their scheme to assassinate their Lord Commander is successful and compels Jon to warg into Ghost as a means of self-preservation.
Also worthy of “note” in the KM’s dialogue is the fact that some glamors “dissolve before sharp eyes”; for instance, Arya, in her FM training, can now easily determine a glamor from a true facial reconfiguration. However, the men of the NW and others witnessing the “real acts of murder” against Jon Snow will be “blind” to Mel’s glamor on Jon, which is sort of an invisible force field. Drawing inferences from the KM, a person who can recognize “glamors” needs to be trained. We also know that the NW and other witnesses at the Wall are incapable of discerning glamors because they were fooled by Rattleshirt’s “likeness” concealing Mance’s identity.
Before looking at Mel’s discussion of the nature of glamors, I wish to reiterate that Jon was warned by many, including Mel, of “daggers in the dark”. He even had a nightmare in which he was battling the Wights wearing the countenances of his fallen brothers and others who have died. Moreover, Jon’s father Ned taught him: “A good lord must know his men . . .” ((710). Exactly – Jon knows he cannot “trust” his men, and he may very likely anticipate an attack by those who are truly displeased with his decisions, especially his invitation to the Wildlings to cross the Wall in order to spare them from the threat of Winter and from the true foe, the Other who uses the dead bodies to create armies of Wights. Therefore, Jon takes precautions in the event of a stabbing. He wears his mail concealed beneath his attire [a la Freys at the RW], including extra layers of wolf skin beneath his cloak. Due to his buffered clothing, the blades the conspirators poke him with do not create fatal puncture wounds with organ damage. The excessive, smoking blood is part of the glamor; furthermore, Jon Snow’s loss of consciousness and death-like appearance suggests Mel’s employment of sorcery to help Jon escape his “honor-bound”, loyal brothers.
Defining the glamor for the reader is Mance Rayder, the receiver of the spell. He says to Mel, “The glamor, aye . . . I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman’s kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my sleep it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. . . Must I wear the bloody bones as well?”
“The spell is made of shadow and suggestions. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that. . . If the glamor fails, they will kill you” (412).
When Mel touches her ruby to dissolve the glamor on Rattleshirt, the wildling undergoes a transformation, turning into the likeness of Mance.
Following are the words Martin enlists to write his description:
“Melisandre touched the ruby and spoke a word.
“The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside the ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling’s wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded” (418).
Jon says,
“What sorcery is this?
“Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R’hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others do with thread . . . The bones help . . . The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built on such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair. A bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and a prayer, a man’s shadow can be drawn forth and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s essence does not change, only his seeming.”
Note that the KM and Mel’s descriptions of glamor mirror one another:
Kindly man: “. . . sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye.”
Mel: “Glamor, seeming, illusion. R’hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others do with thread . . . .”
Before Mel reveals Mance to Jon, she uses a glamor to disguise herself as Ygritte. The readers suspect that Mel cloaks herself in the guise of Ygritte to illicit an emotional reaction from the stoic Jon Snow, a true son of House Stark:
“Someone was behind him [Jon Snow], he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day. When he turned he saw Ygritte. She stood beneath the scorched stones of the Lord Commander’s tower, cloaked in darkness and in memory. The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire. When he saw that, Jon’s heart leapt into his mouth.
“Ygritte.” He said.
“Lord Snow.” The voice was Melisandre’s (379).
Surprise made him recoil from her. “Lady Melisandre . . . I mistook you for someone else” (379).
So – Mel manipulates darkness or shadows and light to weave a metaphoric glamor that will speak specifically to Jon Snow. By appearing as the spearwife Jon loved, the red witch evokes memories of the woman. He romantically recalls her hair “kissed by fire.” Moreover, Jon consciously or subconsciously acknowledges Mel’s powers.
After Mel asks to touch Jon’s wolf:
“The thought made Jon uneasy. ‘Best not.’
‘He will not harm me. You call him Ghost, yes?’
‘Yes, but . . . .’
‘Ghost.’ Melesandre made the word a song.
The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.
Jon let out a deep breath. ‘He is not always so . . . .’
‘ . . . warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.’ Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes blazing red, the same way, when they caught the light just right. ‘Ghost,’ he called. ‘To me.’
“ The direwolf looked at him [Jon Snow] as if he were a stranger.
“Jon frowned in disbelief. ‘That’s queer.’
‘You think so?’ She knelt and scratched Ghost behind the ear. “Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it’
Next, Jon is startled by Ghost’s mysterious reaction to him. However, once learning about “glamors” through the KM and Mel, the readers may suspect that Mel’s sorcery allows her free use of illusion: it seems that Mel “alters” Jon’s appearance, confusing Ghost, who does not immediately understand what has occurred. As a matter of fact, Mel may have flip-flopped her appearance with Jon’s – so when Mel puts her hand on Ghost, and Ghost licks her fingers, he is “reacting” to the “glamor” – he brushes against Mel believing she is “Jon”. Thus, Ghost’s actions are ‘true’ – he has merely been fooled/confused by the ‘sudden’ glamor.
As Ghost licks her face, Mel tells Jon that the lord of light made male and female, “Two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”
“Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.”
Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall . . . Jon could feel her warmth. She has power (380).
These ‘glamors’ Mel performs are simple illusion; they are not complicated, full-scale glamors such as the one she casts on Mance and Rattleshirt. In that glamor, she had to use her ruby conduit and a bracelet on Mance to maintain it for a longer period of time. Moreover, Mel notes that her powers are growing daily – combined with the powers at the Wall and the powers in Snow, maybe Mel aspires to draw from all these powers to grow stronger – so each glamor will be easier to evoke and less demanding to maintain. If readers attend to Mel’s disclosure in her only POV in DWD, not even a full halfway through the novel, they may garner from the suggestion in these lines of the ease with which spells, such as ‘glamors’, are coming to her:
“My spells should suffice. [Since her magic powders are depleting, Mel rationalizes that she will no longer need the powders because her own sorcery is becoming more potent.] She was stronger at the Wall, stronger than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need if the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers (411). Deducing that some additional time passes before Jon is attacked by the Ides of Marsh, by then Mel will only need to whisper “a word” and “wave her hand” to invoke a ‘glamor’ onto Jon Snow, thereby exercising “sorceries at her command . . . she could do things [glamor Snow to protect him, use smoke and excess blood for dramatic value and to convince assassins and others that Snow is dead,] employ spells, illusions, distractions using ‘light and shadow’ to enable the safeguard of Jon Snow’s body, transposing Jon Snow’s clothes with a corpse already in the ice cells, or the corpse of a recently fallen brother or Wildling; glamming corpse to resemble Snow, a cinch with Snow’s bloody undergarments and cloak, send fake JS corpse to her fires where the melodramatic resurrection that so many posters hope to see in WoW occurs – or the dead corpse is reanimated by a wight, with none of Mel’s sorcery involved – she will be as horrified as all funeral attendants]. Then his brothers will have to ‘kill him again’, forcing him into the flames.

I wish to add that Martin will employ another POV, not Jon's, to narrate Jon Snow's assassination, aftermath, and funeral. The author will keep us fretting about his fate even in the WOW. Later, we will learn much and more through a Ghost POV.

At the Shieldhall, Jon notices that Mel arrives after he has begun his speech. I speculate that she is late because she has visited the armory to either free Ghost or open the window so, if need be, Ghost can escape on his own. [See reference below about window and Mance about, and recall that it is snowing and drifting against the Wall, so depending on the drop from the window, Ghost could leap into a deep snow drift only a foot below the ledge?] Surely, Ides of Marsh and Co. have fellow conspirators armed and ready to take down Ghost like Robb’s Grey Wind was taken down.
Jon sees Mel depart after he wins the Wildlings to his cause and after he further inflames his brothers. Mel seemingly suspects the conspiracy to kill the Lord Commander, and she may have learned from her fire visions that the time is now. Therefore, she may have attended the meeting to cast her glamor on Jon with a mere ‘gesture’ and ‘word’, [and if she needed JS’s hair. Mance could have brought Snow’s hair from his helmet, or the helmet itself that he wore in the yard during his sword fight with Rattleshirt/Mance. OR Mance could have stolen a personal item of Jon Snow’s by sneaking in the window of the armory, which Mance had boasted to Jon that the LC was poorly guarded and that any Wildling who had climbed the Wall half a hundred times could easily climb to the window (paraphrase)]

Mere speculation follows: Since Mel “suspects” the Ides of Marsh will make their hit on Jon Snow after the Shieldhall – egged on by JS’s plan to march a Wildling army against Bolton – after hearing the Wildling King-Beyond-the-Wall may still be alive – on top of their personal grudges against Jon Snow and their idealistic subterfuge of committing murder for “the Watch” by eliminating their traitorous, warging, Wildling-loving bastard Lord Commander who aspires to be named the Prince of Winterfell and trueborn son of Lord Eddard Stark – the Ides of Marsh conspiracy has sufficient provocation to set their ‘plans’ into motion.
Ser Patrek of the Mountain is assigned the job of causing a distraction by engaging Wun Wun in sword play. Earlier, Ser Patrek had a run in with Jon Snow and Wun Wun; as a result, Jon defended the Giant by scolding Ser Patrek, offering a Neddism: “My lord father used to say a man should never draw his sword unless he means to use it” (582) Ser Patrek, a proud and vain man – evident by his elaborately decorated clothing – is offended by a ‘boy’ – Jon Snow – scolding him in the presence of his queen and fellow soldiers. Note the exchange of words:
“I had been given to understand that the Night’s Watch defended the realm against such monsters. No one mentioned keeping them as pets.”
Another bloody southron fool. “You are . . . ?”
“Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain, if it please my lord.”
“I do not know how you observe guest right on your mountain, ser. In the north we hold it sacred. Wun Wun is a guest here.”
Ser Patrek smiled. “Tell me, Lord Commander, should the Others turn up, do you plan to offer hospitality to them as well?” (583).

Secretly, Ser Patrek hopes for a chance to one-up the Giant and get even with Snow. [When discussing Val and the Wildling custom of stealing a woman to prove strength, cunning, and courage, Jon warns Ser Patrek that “the suitor risks being caught by the woman’s kin, and worse than that if she herself finds him unworthy” (901). Ser Patrek takes Jon Snow’s explanation as a challenge – and no doubt recalls Snow’s reprimand about ‘steel’ – “Ser Patrek chuckled. ‘No man[such as you, Jon Snow] has ever had cause to question my courage. No woman ever will’” (901). Moreover, Ser Patrek knows Wun Wun’s trigger – exposed steel – a dangerous weapon. Ides of Marsh & Co. figure that if Jon Snow hears his “beloved” giant cry out in distress, he will come running, as he has on other occasions [Jon also admits in his POV that he tries to spend time with Wun Wun, picking up the Old Tongue and learning their history. He wishes Sam were at the Wall to write them down. He remembers Ygritte cried for the fate of the Giants.] Ides of Marsh & Co. take advantage of Jon’s soft spot for Wun Wun– BUT

Perhaps Wun Wun is drunk? That could explain why he is SO out-of-control, ripping Ser Patrek limb from limb. That is why Wun Wun ignores Jon’s orders to stop. Jon also orders Leathers to talk to Wun Wun in the Old Tongue; assuming Leathers obeys his LC, Wun Wun is in such a state, he does not heed Jon or Leathers. Jon made mention of the Giant’s taste for wine when Mully asked for his Lord Commander to send him wine at Hardin’s. Jon replies, “ ‘For you, not him [Wun Wun].’ Wun Wun had never tasted wine until he came to Castle Black, but once he had, he had taken a gigantic liking to it. Too much a liking. Jon had enough to contend with just now without adding a drunken giant to the mix” (582). Ser Patrek also heard this exchange. Consequently, Ser Patrek very well could have sent/brought the wine to Wun Wun with an ulterior motive to sauce up the Giant in the hopes of weakening his responses. Whether Ser Patrek, Mully, Val, or other ? advanced wine to Wun Wun, I propose that Wun Wun’s violent outburst is, in part, due to alcohol consumption.
Mel leaves the Shieldhall. If Jon is to warg his direwolf, Ghost needs some assistance getting out.
After Ghost is freed, a likely scenario is that Ghost will guard fiercely Jon’s body from the haters. [Readers have seen Summer guarding Bran while Bran warged into Hodor to fight the wights at the mouth of Bloodraven’s warded cave]. In the confusion that oft follows such a public spectacle, Mel will use this to her advantage, appropriating dead fake Jon, having him carried to a secret ice cell for private nursing to enable Jon’s recovery via Mel, with the help of Devan and Val [and others whom Mel determines trustworthy], will remove Jon Snow’s blood-stained garments to dress one of the corpses/or fallen brother, or Wildling, on which Mel will transfer the glamor of Jon Snow. Once Jon is content, seeing his body in good hands and well guarded, Ghost will run off to find a good vantage point to spy.

Mel then sponsors a funeral where she feeds glamored Jon’s corpse to her night flames, but when the edges of his cloak smolder, Jon Snow’s glamored corpse rises – and JS is momentarily resurrected as a Wight, but JS is finally devoured by flames that snap and crackle, scarlet and gold sparks exploding into a thousand stars that drop to the ground. [Some visual ‘sign’ or fire dance may occur when the flames taste JS’s “king’s blood.]” Most certainly Mel will have a vision unlike any other – maybe even all funeral attendants will look on as the fires reveal Jon Snow’s dead face, his eyes closed. Then his face will dissolve into the face of Ghost with red eyes glowing. Then, Ghost’s ears will elongate and curl into horns, but the red eyes of Ghost will remain as the dragon’s visage overshadows Ghost’s, smoke rising from his nostrils like a white mist. Finally, the dragon’s face will drop away, revealing Jon Snow, his eyes closed. Suddenly, his eyelids open. On his head he wears a crown featuring a dragon with three heads. After the images disappear, Mel whispers softly:
“We have woken the dragon. They killed the boy, now the man will be born. Three heads has the dragon.”
Ghost/Jon will watch his own funeral from a distance.

Where will Ghost go? How long – time-wise - does Jon have inside Ghost before he has to reconnect with his comatose Jon? [Meera and Jojen wake Bran after three days in Summer? I recall they feed him honeyed water for nourishment.] But after Bran eats weirwood paste, can he stay in Summer longer? Will Jon need weirwood paste? Or will Jon periodically return to his comatose body? When Ghost and Jon parted during the Wildling’s assault on the Wall, Jon could not “sense” Ghost until they were united on the same side of the Wall. Thus, does the Wall barricade wargs communicating via guest and host? Will the magic of the Wall continue, even after the betrayal of LCJS by Ides of Marsh?

If Ghost goes North, can he communicate with dead-Jon? With BR’s help, can Jon reconnect with his corpse beyond the Wall? If Jon is in ice cells deep below the Wall [as is foreshadowed in one of Bran’s wolf dreams and used as evidence in many posts], how will folks above get down to care for him and protect his body from physical harm, or from being warged by an evil force. Can’t Jon be snowed in, trapped in the ice cells?
Ghost may lead Val, the warrior princess, and the Wildlings to Winterfell, [They will make true the rumor: “A Ghost in Winterfell”, where the direwolf will sniff out a secret path by which to gain access to Winterfell, similar to Grey Wind finding a long-forgotten goat track. [Ghost and company may join up with Stannis to march on Winterfell, if Stannis has not yet attacked, or been attacked.] They could also meet up with Asha Greyjoy, Jeyne Bolton/Fake Arya Bolton, and Alys Mormont and company. Ghost could at least learn his little sister is a fake, even though, since Ghost is silent, he will not be able to make dog noises to communicate to anyone that matters that Jeyne Poole is an imposter.

Check out how Martin hooks together Jon and Val. Ghost/Jon with Val may be an interesting POV. Think Beauty and the Beast, a television series Martin worked on – but don’t think too literally.
“Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
They look as if they belong together. Val was clad all in white: white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather. White bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well; . . . but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
‘Have you been trying to steal my wolf?’ he asked her.
‘Why not? If every woman had a direwolf, men would be much sweeter, even crows’” (703).
Jon recalls Axell Florent saying of Val, “ ‘A nubile girl, not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children.’ All true enough, but the wildling woman was so much more. She had proved that by finding Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord” (703).
If Jon/Ghost and Val end up going North or South together, Jon’s point of view as Ghost with a man’s sensibilities might be a good read (not bestiality). I will not elaborate for fear I will write myself into a corner.
Sorry this ended up as long as it did. I am sure someone probably already has my ideas, although I read through posts to try to avoid repeating theories not my own. I am happy I finally memorialized my theories in the written word. Next week, I will probably have new theories that will refute these arguments I presented here. (Not)

Edited by evita mgfs, 10 September 2012 - 02:17 AM.

#16 Arun



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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:57 AM

Doubtful, why would we be reading a chapter through Jons POV, with his thoughts and the chapter either named something else, or us noticing something was different... far fetched indeedio!

agree 100% with this.