Women and Geek Culture

[mythsandstuff]

So, some of you may be aware of the recent discussion of the culture at Reddit re: women.

Here's a link to the Atlantic's summary:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/entertainment/2012/07/why-reddit-so-anti-women-epic-reddit-thread-counts-ways/55080/

In recent months, we've also had some attack and defense of Felicia Day:

http://www.jezebel.com/5922961/the-fight-against-misogynism-in-gaming-enlists-some-big-names

And then there's the Lara Croft rape thing:

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/06/18/500936/an-open-letter-to-the-guys-who-told-me-they-want-to-see-lara-croft-get-raped

And what I'm interested in discussing is what we think the culture re: women is in general, among geeks, what we think the culture is in certain fandoms, and whether it's something we need to be concerned about.

[TerraPrime]

Some of your questions are pretty broad, e.g., the general atmosphere for women among geeks. But I know the answer to your last part of the question: "whether it's something we need to be concerned about. "

Hell yes.

Even on this forum, we've had female users harassed by guys. Some complained, and some had left. We always take those shit seriously but we can't stop every creepy PM that are sexually inappropriate, nor can we prevent any other sort of grossness ahead of time. We do our best to maintain a woman-positive atmosphere on our board (see the "no advocacy for rape" policy in our book forum), and to a single one, all the mods are strong supporters of women within our fandom and in general. The board, in general, come down hard on troglodytes and make sure that they know their brand of idiocy is not welcome here. But we can't stop everything.

That said, I don't use Reddit so I have no basis to comment on the stuff related to Reddit. I do, however, play WoW, a MMORPG, and I know from my experience (over 5 years) there that sexism is alive and well in the gaming culture there. I cannot even count how many public games I had left because I commented that "let's go rape that boss" is inappropriate, and they started attacking me for saying that. I've left a guild for that, too, because I criticized another member's over-the-top use of gender insults like bitches and hos and c*nts and the officers told me to not make troubles.

Not too long ago there were some videos posted of someone doing a study on the use of gender and racial insults for online games, too, and it was, if anything, under-representing the types and frequency of those types of vileness.

So yes, sexism against women in the fandom I am part of is pretty rampant. There are islands of exception, but in general that holds true.

[Kalbear]

There's been some more interesting articles about this too - from John Scalzi on who gets to be a geek and Nick Mamatas as a response. One of the concepts here is that a woman who cosplays isn't 'a real geek', according to some asshats on the internet.

Fuck them right in the ear.

The sexism amongst geeks is one of the reasons I hate the label and hate the association. Geek culture is one of the most inbred chauvinistic places on the planet, which is odd given that it's supposed to be this haven for iconoclasts and people that don't fit in. But no, apparently that also means 'we can't have anyone who isn't hurt just like us' or something.

Again, fuck that right in the ear.

[TerraPrime]

The sexism amongst geeks is one of the reasons I hate the label and hate the association. Geek culture is one of the most inbred chauvinistic places on the planet,

Say what? Worse than sports fandom? Or military fandom? Really?

[Greg]

Say what? Worse than sports fandom? Or military fandom? Really?

Because military and sports fans are geeks who engage in a different form of cosplay?

[mythsandstuff]

Some of your questions are pretty broad, e.g., the general atmosphere for women among geeks. But I know the answer to your last part of the question: "whether it's something we need to be concerned about. "

I think what I meant by general culture re: women is that there may be a presupposition that "geek culture" is "geek guy culture," and that by raising issues related to their own experiences, "geek girls" are intruding on sacred space. Kalbear's post kind of reflects this, and says it better than I can:

Geek culture is one of the most inbred chauvinistic places on the planet, which is odd given that it's supposed to be this haven for iconoclasts and people that don't fit in. But no, apparently that also means 'we can't have anyone who isn't hurt just like us' or something.

I mean, I would assume that, given the marginalization that geeks experience, the culture-at-large would be open to discussing issues of marginalization. But there's a preponderance of evidence that it's not, and that the most vocal members of the culture, when these issues come up, are the ones saying "STFU."

As someone who is concerned with these issues and doesn't want to STFU, it's tempting to make safe spaces within the culture, and retreat there, and not interact with those who would tell me to STFU. But it's my culture too, and I'm not sure I'm willing to accept that I have to be marginalized within it.

So do I try to make more safe spaces? Make those spaces larger, and more inclusive? Or do I bang my head against the wall repeatedly, hurting myself more than I help make the culture safer?

[Sci-2]

I hate to say it, but I think for a lot of [male] geeks relatives and internet are the extent of their interaction with the opposite sex.

Military and sports at least gives some more interaction and exposure to differing views from actual women.

Having worked at a comic shop you get people who love to talk about sex, boobs, asses, whatever and then when they have to interact with an actual female it's incredibly embarrassing to watch.

I realize I'm raising every stereotype under the sun but I can't really explain it any other way.

[S John]

which is odd given that it's supposed to be this haven for iconoclasts and people that don't fit in. But no, apparently that also means 'we can't have anyone who isn't hurt just like us' or something.

This is the one thing I've never understood. Its really only been recently that 'geek' stuff has carried a little bit of respect in popular culture, meaning that, in my opinion, it is more socially acceptable to have geeky interests today than it ever has been. In the past being a geek in high school was almost just as much about being a socially awkward outcast as it was about being interested in traditionally geeky things.

I had a few friends in high school with whom I shared some pretty geeky interests. But for the most part I avoided going all in on that because at the time it just wasn't cool to like computer games and fantasy novels and I had enough other interests that it wasn't a big deal for me to keep that stuff mostly to myself. Nobody outside of a couple people had any idea that I was into those things.

Looking at it from that perspective... I really have no idea why a male with geeky interests would reject the idea of a woman sharing those interests, or marginalize women within that culture. Its a culture that oughtta be welcoming that with open arms. It's having your cake and eating it too. Hasn't been all that long that one could be a huge Spiderman nerd or something and not have people arch an eyebrow at that.

I mean, huge LOTR fan in 1994 vs. huge LOTR fan today? Nobody would give a shit today. They probably like it too. In '94 you could lose your lunch money over shit like that. Today's advances in communication via the internet and a general cultural change in attitude towards geekdom has led to the revelation that that.... hey, there are a lot of women who like this stuff too. To me, this is cause for celebration not marginalization. The only explanation is that some geeks are so hopelessly socially awkward that they'd rather be bitter and continue to run through kleenex at an alarming rate than actually seize the opportunity that many previous generations of geeks before them didn't even know existed. Carpe diem, nerds.

[Sci-2]

The only explanation is that some geeks are so hopelessly socially awkward that they'd rather be bitter and continue to run through kleenex at an alarming rate than actually seize the opportunity them that many previous generations of geeks before them didn't even know existed. Carpe diem, nerds.

There were nerd girls back in the day as well though. I always knew nerd girls in high school.

I'm almost tempted to say it's worse now, perhaps because being sexist and straight can, in the minds of the deluded, make you into a man?

eta: As in there's shit like Penny Arcade to reinforce above belief? There's porn and Maxim and IGN Babes to delude you into thinking you've "gotten" the girl when you're just in a room by yourself?

(I'm not dissing erotica, or masturbation, I'm just saying it's unhealthy when you get delusional about what is going on.)

[Guest Raidne]

I cannot even count how many public games I had left because I commented that "let's go rape that boss" is inappropriate, and they started attacking me for saying that. I've left a guild for that, too, because I criticized another member's over-the-top use of gender insults like bitches and hos and c*nts and the officers told me to not make troubles.

So, I'm reading this and I think, wait a minute, where would this not be true? In what environment, in any group that is all-male or mostly male would this not be the case?

Do we just expect more from geeks than sports fans?

Although, Reddit was reported to only about 2/3 male, right? Is that really enough of a majority to make blatantly sexist and "hostile environment"-type commentary commonplace?

Maybe I'm overestimating how much of this stuff goes on in any environment, or underestimating the extent of it in geek culture. I'm not a gamer, have never been to reddit, etc., so I'm not working with a lot of information beyond what's been said here.

[Lightning Lord]

what's Penny Arcade?

I've been really saddened that popular shows like Big Bang Theory still make the "female nerd" something near-mythical. I know plenty of girls that qualify as nerds, plenty that have much better nerd credentials than I have. But, they're still treated like unicorns, and since they're not real, it's seemingly okay to sexualize them. it's sad, marginalized cultures should know better than others what it feels like to lose stature/respect for no reason.

[S John]

There were nerd girls back in the day as well though. I always knew nerd girls in high school.

I'm almost tempted to say it's worse now, perhaps because being sexist and straight can, in the minds of the deluded, make you into a man?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What is worse?

[Sci-2]

Penny Arcade is one of those big nerd sites. Notable to some for its comics and personalities, others for its attempt to defend rape jokes, last I heard.

But honestly, I kinda those guys were dicks from way back. Just reminds me too much of the "internet tough guy" who would never talk shit face to face.

eta:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What is worse?

That nerd culture is more horrible horribly sexist and pro-rape and judgmental about women's bodies. This entitlement thing is more pronounced.

I just remember most nerds being awkward, and I was definitely a part of that. Tongue tied around girls and the like. Now it's like everyone is entitled to some bikini clad warrior goddess who loves you for you....even if you isn't trying to get into shape, isn't all that nice of a person, and isn't offering anything.

[mythsandstuff]

So, I'm reading this and I think, wait a minute, where would this not be true? In what environment, in any group that is all-male or mostly male would this not be the case?

Do we just expect more from geeks than sports fans?

That's a great question. I think I kinda do - I mean, the thing that's frustrating about having to find/make safe spaces within geek culture is that geek culture is supposed to be a safe space.

ETA: sci, I love the new title above your avatar.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Do you really think the PA stuff is new, though? There have always been clubhouses, and there have always been limits on who can enter them. I agree that it may be more universally noticeable now, but that may just be that more people are aware of it.

Raidne, my experience is that Reddit is exceptionally bad, even for general "internet" or "geek" sites. MMOs and online gaming in general might be as bad -- see fatsluttyorugly or any of the other sites that catalogue responses to women gamers.

[Lightning Lord]

I'm a sports fan. I have no problem with people expecting me to treat women with respect (at which I think I fail from time to time). I don't think we should expect more from either sports fans or geeks - I think both groups and the overlapping elements should be welcoming and respectful.

[MinDonner]

To be honest, I'm even a little wary of the argument that says "male nerds should encourage women to be nerds too..." when it carries the implication of "...so then we can fuck them!" Yeah, maybe that's a halfway house that might make a more acceptable argument to the more basement-dwelling troglodytes, but fuck that if my acceptance into a culture is dependent on my potential fuckability.

[Spoony]

I don't like geek culture, nor would I self-identify with it.

People who do don't often impress me - unless there is something more to them than the regurgitation of pop culture references and a dubious mono-cultural identity that they fixate towards.

I like complexity and individuality in people - and I can understand the need to find common areas of interest with other people, but people principally suck in many different and exciting ways regardless of shared interests.

To me it doesn't seem surprising that there would be exclusionary tendencies in geek culture, because exclusion and belonging seem to go hand in hand in these kinds of groupings.

[S John]

I'm a sports fan. I have no problem with people expecting me to treat women with respect (at which I think I fail from time to time). I don't think we should expect more from either sports fans or geeks - I think both groups and the overlapping elements should be welcoming and respectful.

I'm happy to have women at sporting events or in gaming environments. Just as long as there are no fucking panda's there.

[Lightning Lord]

don't worry. we don't fuck anywhere.