49 replies to this topic

[Sitian Zhang]

Am I the only one who thinks that Ice is Lightbringer?

Quote

The fever dreams were all so vivid...

“Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.”

“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps...

From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound... but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. “I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.” Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. “Ser. Please. If you would be so good.”

The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. in this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”

”

Here we see Jaime and Brienne with a pair of FLAMING swords. These two swords would make sense to be Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.  We already know that Brienne has the one and should Tommen die, the second would most likely pass onto Jaime. As they were both forged from Ice couldn't that mean that Ice was Lightbringer. Since the Long Night mostly affected the north it would also make sense for Azor Ahai to have been from the north and possibly even a stark.

[Pellaeon]

I think oathkeeper will become lightbringer after Jaime stab Lady stoneheart with it (Ned Starks steel through the heart of his wife). Thoros will recocnize Lightbringer and travel with Jaime north to bring AA the sword, could work with Widow's Wail too

[E-Ro]

Its possible ice is lightbringer, but how long has ice been around? Is it old enough?

[Flig]

Ice doesn't necessarily have to be the historical Lightbringer, but perhaps it's reincarnation, just as Azor Ahai must be reborn, so must his sword. I really do like Pellaeon's idea.

[Frey Pie]

E-Ro, on 28 July 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Its possible ice is lightbringer, but how long has ice been around? Is it old enough?

Supposedly its over 400 years old according to the wiki, dont know where that number came from though. I would like if the sword had to become Lightbringer and the man had to become AA

[Crown]

I like this theory so much more than the Longclaw = Lightbringer and Jon Snow = Azor Ahai theories.

[kissdbyfire]

Pellaeon, on 28 July 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I think oathkeeper will become lightbringer after Jaime stab Lady stoneheart with it (Ned Starks steel through the heart of his wife). Thoros will recocnize Lightbringer and travel with Jaime north to bring AA the sword, could work with Widow's Wail too

If the story of forging Lightbringer is true, and that is a huge if, the forging wouldn't work with Lady StoneHeart. The whole 'thrusting the sword in the heart' won't work with a corpse.


OP: I don't think Ice is Lightbringer, but I do think there's a very good chance  Jaime will be AAR.

Edited by kissdbyfire, 28 July 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[Pellaeon]

kissdbyfire, on 28 July 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

If the story of forging Lightbringer is true, and that is a huge if, the forging wouldn't work with Lady StoneHeart. The whole 'thrusting the sword in the heart' won't work with a corpse.


OP: I don't think Ice is Lightbringer, but I do think there's a very good chance  Jaime will be AAR.

Why not, she lives through the power of R'hllor, and AA is a hero of this religion

[Apple Martini]

I don't think it's a literal sword of any kind.

[Frey Pie]

Apple Martini, on 28 July 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

I don't think it's a literal sword of any kind.

your a fan of the Nights Watch being Lightbringer?

Edit:Butterbumbs kindly showed me my error

Edited by Frey Pie, 28 July 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[butterbumps!]

Frey Pie, on 28 July 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

your a fan of the Nights Watch being Lightbringer?

She's not only a fan, she wrote the theory: http://asoiaf.wester...e-nights-watch/

ETA:  I don't think Ice= Lightbringer.

Edited by butterbumps!, 28 July 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[AFfC]

Would be interesting if Ice was Lightbringer and Jaime "activates its power" (turns it into Lightbringer?) by stabbing Brienne, whom he loves, through the heart with it.  Just like AA stabbed his love through the heart to forge Lightbringer originally.  Would be interesting if Jaime was AAR.  I could see a scene going down where Jaime and Brienne are forced to fight by Lady Stoneheart in WoW and this is when it could happen.

Edited by AFfC, 28 July 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[Sevumar]

I'm not sure that putting a sword through the heart of a prominent female figure is enough to make it Lightbringer, even if that female figure was the wife of the blade's owner. In the story of Azor Ahai, the thrust through the heart is the end of a long forging process, necessary both to quench the blade and to represent that Azor Ahai must be willing to give up what he loved most in order to play his role.

At this point, Catelyn is already dead, a shadow of herself. Her present existence is not something that a character seems likely to view as giving up what is most loved.

[salt242]

Apple Martini, on 28 July 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

I don't think it's a literal sword of any kind.

Do you have any thoughts regarding the significance of having ice reforged into two new swords?

[Pellaeon]

Or the resurrection of Catelyn?

[Frey Pie]

butterbumps!, on 28 July 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

She's not only a fan, she wrote the theory: http://asoiaf.wester...e-nights-watch/

ETA:  I don't think Ice= Lightbringer.

My mistake. I do like those thoughts.....

I really hope that whoever AAR is and whatever Lightbringer is that they have to proove themselves. If Jon or Jaime or whoever is AA than id much prefer if they had to proove themselves heroic than to be simply born to it

[kissdbyfire]

Pellaeon, on 28 July 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Why not, she lives through the power of R'hllor, and AA is a hero of this religion

First of all, let me say I don't really think Lightbringer is an actual sword. But let's say, for argument's sake, that it is. There's no evidence in the text that it must be reforged. Look at what Melisandre herself says to Davos in ACoK:

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.” 

And we can't even argue that Mel doesn't know the story of the forging of the sword. So, according to her, Lightbringer won't have to be forged again thus no sacrifice needed. 


Again, for argument's sake, let's say Lightbringer is a sword, and that it must be forged again, in the exact same way it was the first time around. 


ACoK, Davos

“Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast’s red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.
“A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart.  It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.


ADwD, Jon

“He would know.” Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king’s son, a king’s brother, a king’s uncle. “I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm."


The  blood sacrifice is needed. The hot warm blood, full of life. That's what whatever magic is involved in its forging binds to the sword, giving it its extraordinary powers. So no, a sword through Lady Stoneheart's - <<seriously, look at her name! - will not do the trick. I don't care what animates each particular zombie, but they can't ever be blood sacrifices.

[Pellaeon]

kissdbyfire, on 28 July 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

First of all, let me say I don't really think Lightbringer is an actual sword. But let's say, for argument's sake, that it is. There's no evidence in the text that it must be reforged. Look at what Melisandre herself says to Davos in ACoK:

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

And we can't even argue that Mel doesn't know the story of the forging of the sword. So, according to her, Lightbringer won't have to be forged again thus no sacrifice needed.


Again, for argument's sake, let's say Lightbringer is a sword, and that it must be forged again, in the exact same way it was the first time around.


ACoK, Davos

“Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast’s red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.
“A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart.  It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.


ADwD, Jon

“He would know.” Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king’s son, a king’s brother, a king’s uncle. “I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm."


The  blood sacrifice is needed. The hot warm blood, full of life. That's what whatever magic is involved in its forging binds to the sword, giving it its extraordinary powers. So no, a sword through Lady Stoneheart's - <<seriously, look at her name! - will not do the trick. I don't care what animates each particular zombie, but they can't ever be blood sacrifices.

Good arguments, but I don't think the sword must be reforged ony activated by some sort of magical trigger, like the energy wich hold LS alive. The thing with Neds steel through his wifes heart ist just a poetic extra

[Pod The Impaler]

One can consider that scene with Jaime and Brienne as indicating Ice is to be Lightbringer, if recombined (how one would do this with Valyrian steel is anyone's guess). But the sacrifice...

No, not Lady Stoneheart. It has to be someone living, and someone who means the very most to the person doing the sacrifice.
Jaime sacrifices Brienne ? Some have suggested this.  But what about the reverse - Brienne sacrificing him ?  (Or both sacrifice each other at the same time?)

I don't think either of them qualifies as the AAR, but it's possible their role may simply be to bring about the recreation of Lightbringer, one or both dying in the process.

Edited by Pod The Impaler, 28 July 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Apple Martini]

salt242, on 28 July 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Do you have any thoughts regarding the significance of having ice reforged into two new swords?

I think that the swords could eventually be reforged into one to symbolize the reunion of the surviving Starks, sure. But as for it having significance of the Lightbringer variety, that I do not believe.

ETA: Though I do not believe that Lightbringer is a literal sword, if it is, it will only be apparent in hindsight. Lightbringer doesn't "exist" in its intended form at this moment. Lightbringer would be whatever sword the Azor Ahai figure wielded.

Edited by Apple Martini, 28 July 2012 - 03:27 PM.