Did Jon "steal" Val?

[Jarocal]

That reminds me that someone said that when Jon vehemently said that he would never have a bastard perhaps he will. Val would need to beat Mel to the punch. Mel may get Jon in her service/use magic on him if she helps him.

Having read the whole thread all I can contribute is "Mel+Jon+Val= two little 'Snowflakes' :)"

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I don't think its a coincidence Jon is right outside her tower when he gets stabbed. With the Watch having betrayed him its the Wildings who will protect him and Val who will nurse him back to health. The Wildings reaction to his betrayal will answer all questions we have. If they look out for him when he's hurt then its because he's their defacto leader already and if Val cares for him its because he's her guy.

[ViserionsFire]

The free folk has given up freedom twice in a row?

I don't know, it seems to me like a bit too far stretched. They are the kind of people would only recognize a strong leader - jon could be seen as that - but that also calls himself like that and takes decisions in favour of his own "peers".

It’s been a while since I’ve seen this thread.

Yes, I agree that the Wildlings would see Jon as a strong leader. As far a giving up their freedom twice, is the first time that you’re referring to when they accepted Mance as their leader?

I understood that the reason the Wildllings accepted Mance as their leader and invaded was to get beyond the Wall in order to evade the “Others”. It’s Jon that has not only provided this but also gives them land and opportunity. That they surrender their valuables in return for the presumed safety of the “gift” may be considered giving up their freedom, but I think it’s more like they see that Jon has provided a new life opportunity to them in their dark hour. Jon has already shown his acceptance of them with the Thenn/Karstark wedding. That they surrender their valuables to cross beneath the Wall is just a formality in accepting Jon as their leader.

[HannibalStark]

It's interesting how a sentence can be interpreted differently :)

That quote looks to me like she will not be married off like a southron lady, she will be marry the way the free folk do. And it could be a reminder to what has already happened since she is already "stolen" - she is married, according to the free folk custom.

But you are right, I wonder what would happen if Jon tried to consumate the marriage :uhoh:

at this point assuming Jon becomes free of his vows or the NW is indeed undone...but assuming for whatever reason Jon is free to marry...at this point I don't Jon would or could marry some southron lady....I would think that should he be able to marry, he would want to marry a strong woman of the free folk, not some meek prim and proper lady.

[Winnief]

Jon can't 'steal' Val-she's a person not a goat.

Seriously, I found it endlessly amusing/aggravating the way Southerners thought that Val was somehow up as a 'prize' to be given to any of them...that is a woman who's going to choose her own mount thank you very much.

As for Jon, I don't know he'll end up with Val, but I don't see him going for the typical Southern noblewoman either. It will be a member of the free folk-or a Northern woman for sure.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Saying Jon stole Val would be like saying Rhaegar stole Lyanna

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Val seems open to Jon being her guy. But like Ygritte she understands he needs a little time to adjust. The entire Wildling tribe knows Jon and Ygritte were together and if Ygritte was still alive they'd likely still be together now that the Wildlings are beyond the wall. Val and the Wildlings know Jon is flexible when it comes to his vows with women and Val doesn't seem to be too concerned about his vow of chastity. They're all but a committed couple by now, whether or not Jon's ready to accept it. He didn't realize that he and Ygritte was a couple until she told him, I don't see much difference with Val.

[King Pellinore]

What if Val steals Jon?

[Thucydides]

Given how cringe-worthy GRRM's love scenes are, I'd personally rather not want to see Val suffer through one with Jon.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I've only read Jon's once, but did it truly suffer from the 'Myrish swamp' and 'Fat pink mast', too?

I'm here for Val stealing Jon. :P

[Mithras]

I think Val has definitely a thing for Jon but I am not sure about her real purpose. Her playful tone when speaking to Jon is already noted. There is another piece of evidence.

Once outside and well away from the queen’s men, Val gave vent to her wroth. “You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs. And the daughter … her face …”

Although Val is wroth, the bolded sentence can bring some strange pictures to a person’s mind. It is interesting how both Mel and Val apparently want to get into the pants of Jon.

“This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet.”

“I am no man’s pet,” said Jarl, dark and fierce.

“And Val’s no man,” white-bearded Tormund snorted. “You ought to have noticed that by now, lad.”

By the sixth hour, Jarl had moved ahead of Grigg the Goat again, and his men were widening the gap. “The Mance’s pet must want a sword,” the Magnar said, shading his eyes.

Why does Magnar think that Jarl is Mance’s pet? I think there might be a hidden intention of Val and Mance not revealed yet. Mance originally wanted to pass all he wildlings south of the Wall.

Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore?

“You can kill your enemies,” Jon said bluntly, “but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king’s peace and obey the laws?”

“Whose laws? The laws of Winterfell and King’s Landing?” Mance laughed. “When we want laws we’ll make our own. You can keep your king’s justice too, and your king’s taxes. I’m offering you the horn, not our freedom. We will not kneel to you.”

However, this was a doomed plan because the Northern Lords are more than enough to crush them in the South. Is Mance stupid to neglect this or does he have a secret agenda?

“I will need horses. Half a dozen good ones. And this is nothing I can do alone. Some of the spearwives penned up at Mole’s Town should serve. Women would be best for this. The girl’s more like to trust them, and they will help me carry off a certain ploy I have in mind.”

“What is he talking about?” Lord Snow asked her.

“Your sister.” Melisandre put her hand on his arm. “You cannot help her, but he can.”

Later Jon thought many times whether Mance/Mel had other intentions.

Jon walked to the edge of the Wall and gazed down upon the killing ground where Mance Rayder’s host had died. He wondered where Mance was now. Did he ever find you, little sister? Or were you just a ploy he used so I would set him free?

A golden dawn was breaking in the east, but behind Lady Melisandre’s window in the King’s Tower a reddish light still flickered. Does she never sleep? What game are you playing, priestess? Did you have some other task for Mance?

Theon wrenched away. This was a ploy, he knew it.

Every word she said persuaded Theon that this was all some ploy.

It was the girl who held them here, Lord Eddard’s blood, but the girl was just a mummer’s ploy, a lamb in a direwolf’s skin.

With so much smoke rising, there must be a fire as well. Mance must have hidden intentions and Val might be a part of it.

fArya is a lamb in a direwolf’s skin. I remember a reverted case (a wolf in a sheep skin) which is related to the free folk and Mance/Val.

There are wolves amongst these sheep, still.

Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. “Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes … we have plenty, as do you.”

She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats.

Jon had once heard Mance Rayder say that most kneelers were sheep. “Now, a dog can herd a flock of sheep,” the King-Beyond-the-Wall had said, “but free folk, well, some are shadowcats and some are stones. One kind prowls where they please and will tear your dogs to pieces. The other will not move at all unless you kick them.”

[lakin1013]

Saying Jon stole Val would be like saying Rhaegar stole Lyanna

It is very difficult to read this Jon and Val thread and avoid all the seeming references to Lyanna and Rhaegar. We know that Jon thinks Val is lovely, she seems to like him, folks think he 'stole' her, others think the theft was consensual, and now Jon is stabbed almost at the foot of her tower. If we accept R+L=J, it makes me want to know more about Val's family history. Where does she really come from? There are just too many references to her bearing as that of a princess to think she might be more than a mere wilding. And if she is indeed high born, what house should she belong to, which one moves the Jon Snow plot along in an efficient fashion???

[Noelle Snow]

Isn't the theory that if Val is indeed of highborn descent that she's an Umber granddaughter? Don't know if I buy that but that's the family I usually see associated with her.

[KaiserTsar]

If this thread is correct about Val being a love interest of Jon, that is not good news. It would make Val a Nissa Nissa candidate!

[Robb_Warged]

I ship Jon/Val

[Ghost's Shadow]

If this thread is correct about Val being a love interest of Jon, that is not good news. It would make Val a Nissa Nissa candidate!

It is actually nowhere stated that there needs to be a new Nissa Nissa! Nor is it certain that there's going to be a literal flaming sword. Prophecy is a tricky thing, and better not take 8,000 year old stories literal.

[Dolorous22]

It is actually nowhere stated that there needs to be a new Nissa Nissa! Nor is it certain that there's going to be a literal flaming sword. Prophecy is a tricky thing, and better not take 8,000 year old stories literal.

Amen to that. It'd be boring if the blueprint for the end of the story was already in full view and a mere formality in the upcoming events.

I love the idea of Val and John, regardless of who 'steals' who or whether it's completely mutual. I really enjoy the way wildlings/freefolk tease JS especially when he's trying to be dutiful.

[Lord Martin]

I also ship Jon and Val. I did a lengthy bit on Val, the Moon and Jon... its here if anyone is interested. Just a few notes to add

The "Moon" association with Val has been made on this threat. Also note this from Jon's chapter:

"Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it."

I am not a wolf, he thought. "And how would I do that?"

"I can show you." Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. "The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows."

"Shadows." The world seemed darker when he said it. "Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall."

In the same speech that Mel tells Jon that there is power in the joining of men and women, she says he has been kissed by the moon resulting in a large shadow.

Shadows are also a metaphor for power or influence in the series. Think of Vary's riddle and power being a shadow on the wall.

Later Mel has visions of Jon Snow but I hone in on this one:

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths.Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The bodies writhing in lust in the mist reminds me of when Jon sends Val out to find Tormund:

"You have my word, Lord Snow. I will return, with Tormund or without him." Val glanced at the sky. The moon was but half-full. "Look for me on the first day of the full moon."

"I will." Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head.

. . .

"He may not heed your words, but he will hear them." Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. "You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope."

Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air.

Consider what mist really is... a mist happens when the cold ground thaws ... it is fire applied to ice....

[Crowfood's Daughter]

great topic! You have me on board with this :thumbsup:

[Ghosts Lunch]

I reckon the "they looked like the belonged together" bit about Ghost and Val is pretty symbolic

Val is perhaps accepting of Jon as her "stealer husband" thingy, and Ben if Jon hasn't figured it out, he probably has subconsciously which is reflected through Ghost naturally/consciously being accepting/close to/with Val

So they probably are together in Wildlings eyes, and symbolic of the bond between Free Folk and Crows/kneelers, which is why they are open to accepting his terms and why they are as open to accepting his pink letter call to arms. When he we not across as an undercover NW knowingly or not he is probably still fulfilling their rites of passage. Clmbing the Wall being a big one of them