30 replies to this topic

[Ser Lepus]

Ran, I've read the interview in both spanish and english and I've found some little mistakes:

20- En Canción, vemos que los matrimonios casi siempre son entre grandes familias para unir lazos y ganar poder y aliados. En ese contexto, siempre ha resultado extraño el matrimonio de Tywin con una prima suya, y más extraño aun conociendo a Tywin. ¿O verdaderamente ahí sí se guió por el amor?

20-We see how in ASOIAF marriages almost always are done between great families (Great Houses?) to create ties and allies. Tywin's marriage with a cousin seem strange in that context, even more if you know how Tywin is. Did he really did it for love?

Por lo general las casas nobles hacen matrimonios de conveniencia para conseguir alianzas. De hecho es una práctica extendida no sólo entre las clases nobles sino también entre las clases medias e incluso entre los campesinos: si alguien tiene un pedazo de tierra casa a su hija con alguien que tiene un pedazo de tierra más grande con la esperanza de que acabe siendo de sus nietos.

Noble houses usually make marriages of convenience to build alliances. As a matter of fact, it's a common practice not only among the noble class, but also among the middle class and even among peasants: If somebody has a piece of land, he marries his daughter with somebody who has an even bigger piece of land, in the hope that all that land will belong to his grandchildren some day.

Sobre Tywin… <larga, larga pausa>… Probablemente.

About Tywin...<long, long pause>...Probably.

Puede ser que fuera por amor, pero también puede haber otro motivo claro que es reforzar las líneas de sangre de la familia. Los Targaryen son el máximo exponente de esa política: sólo se casan dentro de la familia para mantener la pureza de sangre y así evitas problemas, como hablábamos antes, con distintos aspirantes al trono o a la cabeza de la familia. Si tienes cinco hermanos en una generación y cada uno tiene varios hijos, en dos o tres generaciones te encuentras con treinta posibles herederos: puede haber treinta personas que se llamen Lannister o Frey y eso crea conflictos, porque todos van a estar metidos en luchas hereditarias para hacerse con el trono. Eso a fin de cuentas es lo que originó en Inglaterra la Guerra de las Rosas: un exceso de candidatos al trono, descendientes de Eduardo III. Es tan malo no tener herederos como le ocurrió a Enrique VIII como tener demasiados. Si tienes cinco hijos y quieres evitar problemas, pues a lo mejor no es mala idea que la primogénita del primer hijo se case con el tercer hijo y así evitas que conflictos y la sangre se mantiene unida, o sea que a lo mejor ése es el motivo de la boda de Tywin. Puede que fuera Titus el que lo organizó o puede que incluso fuera el abuelo de Tywin, depende de en qué momento exacto se acordara la boda, pero necesitaría comprobarlo en mis fichas porque no me acuerdo de memoria.

It could be love, but there is another clear motive, which is to reinforce the family's bloodline. The Targayren are the extreme example of that policy: they only marry within the family to keep the purity of the blood, and that way you avoid the problem of having several candidates for the throne or the rule of the family. If you have a generation of five brothers and each of them has several children (sons?), after two or three generations you could find yourself with thirty potential heirs: there could be thirty people named Lannister or Frey, and that produces confict, because all of them are going to get involved in hereditary fights for the throne. That's what originated the War of the Roses; An excess of candidates for the throne, all of them descendants of Edward III. Lacking a heir (like Henry VIII) is just as bad as having too many of them. If you have five sons and you want to avoid that kind of problem, maybe it's not such a bad idea to marry the firstborn girl of the oldest son with the third son (or with the firstborn of the third son?), and that way you avoid fights and the bloodline remains united, so maybe that was the purpose of Tywin's marriage. Maybe it was Lord Titus' idea, or maybe even Tywin's grandfather's idea, it depends on which was the exact time in which the marriage alliance was brokered, but I would have to check my notes because I can't remember.

I think it's important because the way GRRM told it, it's implied that the main reason was political/practical, not some obsession of Tywin about the superiority of the Lannister blood, and there are some people in the forums that are saying that GRRM suggested that Tywin knew of Jamie and Cersei's incest and allowed it due to said obsession.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 18 August 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Ser Lepus, on 14 August 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

Ran, I've read the interview in both spanish and english and I've found some little mistakes:

20- En Canción, vemos que los matrimonios casi siempre son entre grandes familias para unir lazos y ganar poder y aliados. En ese contexto, siempre ha resultado extraño el matrimonio de Tywin con una prima suya, y más extraño aun conociendo a Tywin. ¿O verdaderamente ahí sí se guió por el amor?

20-We see how in ASOIAF marriages almost always are done between great families (Great Houses?) to create ties and allies. Tywin's marriage with a cousin seem strange in that context, even more if you how Tywin is. Did he really did it for love?

Por lo general las casas nobles hacen matrimonios de conveniencia para conseguir alianzas. De hecho es una práctica extendida no sólo entre las clases nobles sino también entre las clases medias e incluso entre los campesinos: si alguien tiene un pedazo de tierra casa a su hija con alguien que tiene un pedazo de tierra más grande con la esperanza de que acabe siendo de sus nietos.

Noble houses usually make marriages of convenience to build alliances. As a matter of fact, it's a common practice not only among the noble class, but also among the middle class and even among peasants: If somebody has a piece of land, he marries his daughter with somebody who has an even bigger piece of land, in the hope that all that land will belong to his grandchildren some day.

Sobre Tywin… <larga, larga pausa>… Probablemente.

About Tywin...<long, long pause>...Probably.

Puede ser que fuera por amor, pero también puede haber otro motivo claro que es reforzar las líneas de sangre de la familia. Los Targaryen son el máximo exponente de esa política: sólo se casan dentro de la familia para mantener la pureza de sangre y así evitas problemas, como hablábamos antes, con distintos aspirantes al trono o a la cabeza de la familia. Si tienes cinco hermanos en una generación y cada uno tiene varios hijos, en dos o tres generaciones te encuentras con treinta posibles herederos: puede haber treinta personas que se llamen Lannister o Frey y eso crea conflictos, porque todos van a estar metidos en luchas hereditarias para hacerse con el trono. Eso a fin de cuentas es lo que originó en Inglaterra la Guerra de las Rosas: un exceso de candidatos al trono, descendientes de Eduardo III. Es tan malo no tener herederos como le ocurrió a Enrique VIII como tener demasiados. Si tienes cinco hijos y quieres evitar problemas, pues a lo mejor no es mala idea que la primogénita del primer hijo se case con el tercer hijo y así evitas que conflictos y la sangre se mantiene unida, o sea que a lo mejor ése es el motivo de la boda de Tywin. Puede que fuera Titus el que lo organizó o puede que incluso fuera el abuelo de Tywin, depende de en qué momento exacto se acordara la boda, pero necesitaría comprobarlo en mis fichas porque no me acuerdo de memoria.

It could be love, but there is another clear motive, which is to reinforce the family's bloodline. The Targayren are the extreme example of that policy: they only marry within the family to keep the purity of the blood, and that way you avoid the problem of having several candidates for the throne or the rule of the family. If you have a generation of five brothers and each of them has several children (sons?), after two or three generations you could find yourself with thirty potential heirs: there could be thirty people named Lannister or Frey, and that produces confict, because all of them are going to get involved in hereditary fights for the throne. That's what originated the War of the Roses; An excess of candidates for the throne, all of them descendants of Edward III. Laking a heir (like Henry VIII) is just as bad as having too many of them. If you have five sons and you want to avoid that kind of problem, maybe it's not such a bad idea to marry the firstborn girl of the oldest son with the third son (or with the firstborn of the third son?), and that way you avoid fights and the bloodline remains united, so maybe that was the purpose of Tywin's marriage. Maybe it was Lord Titus' idea, or maybe even Tywin's grandfather's idea, it depends on which was the exact time in which the marriage alliance was brokered, but I would have to check my notes because I can't remember.

I think it's important because the way GRRM told it, it's implied that the main reason was political/practical, not some obsession of Tywin about the superiority of the Lannister blood, and there are some people in the forums that are saying that GRRM suggested that Tywin knew of Jamie and Cersei's incest and allowed it due to said obsession.

GRRM's long long pause before answering the question about why Tywin married his cousin is veeeeeeeery revealing, in my opinion.  He wasn't ready for this question and was forced to think up a BS answer on the spot.

This to me is further confirmation of the REAL reason GRRM had Tywin marry his cousin - it's just a plot device to allow Tyrion to look like and be a Lannister, when in fact Tyrion's real father is Aerys Targaryen.

[the sword in the night]

A Bong of Ice and Fire, on 17 August 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

GRRM's long long pause before answering the question about why Tywin married his cousin is veeeeeeeery revealing, in my opinion.  He wasn't ready for this question and was forced to think up a BS answer on the spot.

This to me is further confirmation of the REAL reason GRRM had Tywin marry his cousin - it's just a plot device to allow Tyrion to look like and be a Lannister, when in fact Tyrion's real father is Aerys Targaryen.

I concur.  Tyrion is the third Targeryan (with Dany and Jon).  Three heads.  But I still want him to be the lord of the rock when its all said and done.

[ckal]

I don't want Tyrion to be a Targaryen.

But doesn't Jaime and Cersei being Targaryen's make more sense than Tyrion? When it was speculated Aerys took the first night right with Tywin's bride, Jaime and Cersei had not been born yet and Tyrion comes years later.

[Feather Crystal]

GRRM says in another interview that the three heads don't all have to be Targaryen. So, Tyrion doesn't have to be Targaryen to be the third head, and yes, Cersei and Jaime are older so if any of them are Targaryen, it would be them. Furthermore, Cersei and Jaime hid their incest from Tywin...I don't think he knew.

[Lady Flandrensis]

But Aerys could've had Joanna anytime, so the possibility of Tyrion being a Targ still exists.

[Ran]

Post elsewhere about the series folks, this is an update thread.

[the sword in the night]

ckal, on 20 August 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

I don't want Tyrion to be a Targaryen.

But doesn't Jaime and Cersei being Targaryen's make more sense than Tyrion? When it was speculated Aerys took the first night right with Tywin's bride, Jaime and Cersei had not been born yet and Tyrion comes years later.

Sorry Ran, I need to school these guys.

In DoD, Barristan said that Aerys made a quip at Tywin's wedding that it was too bad that prima nocte was no longer practiced.  But there's no way that he got in there that night.  Before the wedding, Aerys did love Joanna, and maybe she loved him too, we don't know.  But she was dutiful, so I think it doubtful that she willingly went into the mad king's bed.  That being said, it was just after Tyrion was conceived that Tywin sent Joanna back to the Rock.  I believe the mad king raped Joanna, she then told Tywin, so he sent her home.  Then when Aerys' monster killed her coming out, Tywin was stuck with having to raise him as his own, or wear horns.  It must have killed him, as well as losing the only person who could make him smile, so said Lady Jenna.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Too bad I can't read Spanish......oh well I'll wait to see if theres a translated version lying around somewhere

[pablonohablo]

The wording with Lyanna certainly seems curious. I would say "revealing" as well. Great, great interview.

[ItIsKnown]

looks like has already been translated but if anyone needs help next time, around I am a Spanish to English translator and have a portfolio of work to back up my claim.    My translations are accurate.

Edited by ItIsKnown, 31 August 2012 - 07:05 PM.