31 replies to this topic

[Garlan Marius]

This passage from Melisandre I in A Dance With Dragons has been noted before on here as evidence that Melisandre may wish to create a glamor of Davos:

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"The bones help," said Melisandre.  "The bones remember.  The strongest glamors are built of such things.  A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones.  With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak.  The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

Assuming she was able to procure Davos' lucky bag between the Battle of Blackwater and Stannis' attack at the Wall, Melisandre may have already cast that glamor.  However, something else stood out to me on a reread of A Storm of Swords, in Davos III, where Davos is lying sick in his cell:

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Dimly he remembered gentle hands and a firm voice, and young Maester Pylos looking down on him.  He was given hot garlic broth to rink, and milk of the poppy to take away his aches and shivers.  The poppy made him sleep and while he slept they leeched him to drain off the bad blood.  Or so he surmised, by the leech marks on his arms when he woke.

We know from Arya's time with Roose Bolton at  the very least, that leech therapy was uncommon.  However, Roose was awake for his leeching.  The other time we see a leeching done on Dragonstone is with Edric Storm, and lo and behold who was the "leecher" for that:

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"The boy is sick.  Maester Pylos has been leeching him."

We have evidence that Pylos is working with Melisandre, to bring her blood!  Davos' blood cannot be considered "kings blood," so why would she want it?  It seems reasonable that she will use it for a powerful Davos glamor.  Perhaps she extracted his blood for this purpose because she hadn't gotten the bag of fingerbones yet.

The question is not whether Melisandre has planned to use a Davos glamor; there is sufficient evidence that she has planned this since at least Dragonstone.  The question is whether she has done so already, or whether she will do so in the future.  My prediction is that Jon Snow will be glamored to get him out of Castle Black, but that is neither here nor there.  There will be a Davos glamor showing his face, though, and that is worth thinking about.

[Ser Leftwich]

Mel might glamour character X into Davos in order to convince Stannis of something.
Stannis does not always do what Mel suggests, but if Mel and Davos-glamour agree, Stannis would much more likely be on board for said course of action.

[Garlan Marius]

What does Melisandre need Stannis to agree with her about?  And her visions about Jon Snow might mean that she's used Stannis for as much as she needs him.

[Associate Maester]

I've heard this theory before and just don't buy it.  How in the devil was Melisandre able to get them from the water after the battle given she is at Dragonstone?  Leeching was not uncommon in the Middle Ages   as a way to get rid of bad\sick blood.  The only odd thing I remember about the Bolton leeching scene is that he didn't use the regular black leeches.  If I missed something about leeching being unusual let me know where to look.

I'm not even sure a glamour of Davos would work to try and convince Stannis of anything given how long Stannis has known Davos.  I think people read way too much into that finger bone line.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Everyone seems to look at the fingerbones line as something that will happen. I think we should also look at the past in case it's already been used.

[Garlan Marius]

Dreadfort81, on 31 July 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

If I missed something about leeching being unusual let me know where to look.

Davos IV in A Storm of Swords, Melisandre uses Edric Storm's blood (collected by Pylos) for her ritual about the three pretenders.  The fact that Pylos is giving blood to Melisandre makes it likely that he also could have given Davos's blood to her.

Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik, on 31 July 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Everyone seems to look at the fingerbones line as something that will happen. I think we should also look at the past in case it's already been used.

Very possible.  An intense reread of Davos in ASoS and ADwD is in order.

[Rhaegar The Chef]

During the Battle of the Blackwater, in Davos' chapter he does not mention his bag of fingerbones. The last mention he makes of it is in the chapter before.

[Associate Maester]

Garlan Marius, on 31 July 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Davos IV in A Storm of Swords, Melisandre uses Edric Storm's blood (collected by Pylos) for her ritual about the three pretenders.  The fact that Pylos is giving blood to Melisandre makes it likely that he also could have given Davos's blood to her.

Very possible.  An intense reread of Davos in ASoS and ADwD is in order.

I guess I didn't read that as particularly odd especially if Selyse or Stannis told Pylos to give Melisandre Edric's blood. Then again without evidence Pylos could've done it on his own accord if Mel asked for whatever reason.  This just happens to be one theory I don't buy.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Why does everybody presume Melisandre mentioning the most personal item anybody ever carried (as far as we know) and well-known to her as an example for personal items to support a glamour as proof that she has the back and used it/intends to use it?

We know where Davos' fingers are - on the bottom of Blackwater Bay.

[Garlan Marius]

Rhaegar The Chef, on 31 July 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

During the Battle of the Blackwater, in Davos' chapter he does not mention his bag of fingerbones. The last mention he makes of it is in the chapter before.

I lack my ACoK to check on that, but if this is true, that he forgot them, then Melisandre assuredly has them.

Dreadfort81, on 31 July 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

I guess I didn't read that as particularly odd especially if Selyse or Stannis told Pylos to give Melisandre Edric's blood. Then again without evidence Pylos could've done it on his own accord if Mel asked for whatever reason.  This just happens to be one theory I don't buy.

Either way, it (Edric example) is an odd use of leeches/ blood.  If Melisandre is using blood magic, and if glamors are a type of blood magic, perhaps blood is necessary.  We have evidence that Pylos has given Melisandre blood; that is enough to assume the possibility that he has given her Davos' blood.

Bright Blue Eyes, on 31 July 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Why does everybody presume Melisandre mentioning the most personal item anybody ever carried (as far as we know) and well-known to her as an example for personal items to support a glamour as proof that she has the back and used it/intends to use it?

Because GRRM likes to drop little hints like that into his stories.

[Associate Maester]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 31 July 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Why does everybody presume Melisandre mentioning the most personal item anybody ever carried (as far as we know) and well-known to her as an example for personal items to support a glamour as proof that she has the back and used it/intends to use it?

We know where Davos' fingers are - on the bottom of Blackwater Bay.

It would make sense she would bring up finger bones as a handy example as..I'm sure not many people around Westeros carry their finger bones around their neck.  To me this is just another round of "Melisandre breathes...it must mean she is up to something nefarious" (which hey fine if people view her that way, but better examples and interpretations of said examples are to be had).  Sometimes a throw away line is just a throw away line.

Edited by Dreadfort81, 31 July 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[Pope Killdragon]

It seemed like she was simply mocking Davos to me.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Davos definitely lost the bag on the blackwater, he had it on his last ACOK chapter and didn't on his first ASOS chapter (where he is near dying on that little rock at sea). So the only possible explanation for the textual facts to fit this theory is that Melissandre has a secret contrived deal with one of them drown god mermaids who fished out the bag of bones for her.

Dreadfort81, on 31 July 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

(...) To me this is just another round of "Melisandre breathes...it must mean she is up to something nefarious" (...)

This.

[Sevumar]

I think the bones are most likely mentioned as a detail that readers will recall, possibly pointing to the utility of items carried close to their owners for a long period of time or treasured possessions. Items to which the owner has a strong attachment may be strong anchors for a glamor. I don't think we can say any more about the example. We haven't had a good chance to see a Davos glamor in action.

[Catacombs]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 31 July 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

We know where Davos' fingers are - on the bottom of Blackwater Bay.

This seems right to me. I don't get how Mel got the bones. Who dove into a burning bay and retrieved them for her? How did they get them to her? And even if she had them on the Wall, wouldn't there be easier glamors to pull off?

[Rickon the Reclaimer]

I dont think she has them and i'm sure davos had them in the blackwater, but a possable explanation could be that she took them earlier and glamoured Davos into thinking they were there up to the battle.

[kissdbyfire]

Dreadfort81, on 31 July 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

I've heard this theory before and just don't buy it.  How in the devil was Melisandre able to get them from the water after the battle given she is at Dragonstone?  Leeching was not uncommon in the Middle Ages   as a way to get rid of bad\sick blood.  The only odd thing I remember about the Bolton leeching scene is that he didn't use the regular black leeches.  If I missed something about leeching being unusual let me know where to look.

I'm not even sure a glamour of Davos would work to try and convince Stannis of anything given how long Stannis has known Davos.  I think people read way too much into that finger bone line.

I agree. There is absolute no credible way for Mel to have Davos' bag of finger bones. If he had been rescued unconscious, if we hadn't seen him on that rock, already without the bag, then maybe. But the way it happened, I just don't see how she could have them.

I think what we see in her PoV is simply Mel thinking about possibilities, and maybe something she could have achieved had she had Davos' finger bones.

[Zabuza]

Ser Leftwich, on 31 July 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Mel might glamour character X into Davos in order to convince Stannis of something.
Stannis does not always do what Mel suggests, but if Mel and Davos-glamour agree, Stannis would much more likely be on board for said course of action.

It would be extremely difficult to act like Davos for Stannis, anyone else probably wouldn't notice.

[Frey family reunion]

I'm not sure about Melisandre having Davos' fingerbones, but there is one character who keeps this type of bones in his bedchamber, which I found very curious.

  Illyrio said after his wife Sera's death he keeps her hands in his bedchamber.  Rereading Tyrion's chapters with Illyrio also makes me think there is something more to Illyrio than meets the eye.  There is a part of the story where Tyrion is alone in the yard outside the manse, when he collects some poisonous mushrooms on the ground.  Later at dinner, Illyrio plays a "joke" on Tyrion and serves him a dish of mushrooms that he allows Tyrion to believe are poisonous to see if he will eat them.  How did Illyrio know about Tyrion's interest in the mushrooms?  Spying on him with an obisidan candle perhaps?

Also we know Melisandre's ruby apparently aids her in casting glamor spells.  There is a theory that in the dunk and egg books Bloodraven is posing as Maynard Plumm under a glamor, and Plumm's moonstone brooch is said to be a clue (moonstone apparently being Bloodraven's symbol.  Well Illyrio has a ton of gemstones he wears on his hands.  Including a sapphire and emerald rings (which just so happen to be Bloodraven's sister Shiera Seastar's symbols)(Sera description is awfully close to Shiera minus one green eye).

[Dr. Pepper]

Frey family reunion, on 27 October 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

I'm not sure about Melisandre having Davos' fingerbones, but there is one character who keeps this type of bones in his bedchamber, which I found very curious.

  Illyrio said after his wife Sera's death he keeps her hands in his bedchamber.  Rereading Tyrion's chapters with Illyrio also makes me think there is something more to Illyrio than meets the eye.  There is a part of the story where Tyrion is alone in the yard outside the manse, when he collects some poisonous mushrooms on the ground.  Later at dinner, Illyrio plays a "joke" on Tyrion and serves him a dish of mushrooms that he allows Tyrion to believe are poisonous to see if he will eat them.  How did Illyrio know about Tyrion's interest in the mushrooms?  Spying on him with an obisidan candle perhaps?

I don't think it's that complicated.  Tyrion was in Illyrio's manse, surrounded by guards and servants. If Illyrio wasn't watching him, then at least some servant or guard was.  Surely Illyrio would have his servants/guards reporting the actions of a guest.

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Also we know Melisandre's ruby apparently aids her in casting glamor spells.  There is a theory that in the dunk and egg books Bloodraven is posing as Maynard Plumm under a glamor, and Plumm's moonstone brooch is said to be a clue (moonstone apparently being Bloodraven's symbol.  Well Illyrio has a ton of gemstones he wears on his hands.  Including a sapphire and emerald rings (which just so happen to be Bloodraven's sister Shiera Seastar's symbols)(Sera description is awfully close to Shiera minus one green eye).

Now, that's interesting.