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“The Watch Takes No Part:” Analyzing Jon’s “Oathbreaking”


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When Jon said his vows didn't he just say I and not Jon Snow? I think the only way he'll get out of his vows is that the NW is effectively finished/wiped out.

It says that they shall live and die at their post and for all nights to come. I don't think being resurrected undoes it.

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Not initially but when shit hits the fan these types are needed. He needs a good Randyll or Tywin type. Roose isn't trustworthy but he can be good in an apocalypse. He would just need to be disposed of afterwards.

Your assuming that Roose would help at the Wall. But we know that everyone south of the Wall doesn't believe the Others are coming. Roose would kill Jon, Jon loyalists, King and Queens men and Wildlings then leave the 100 NW members alone, until the Others come knocking on the Dreadforts door, at which point everyone is screwed

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I'm confused as to why everyone thinks Roose would be unable to defend the wall. He doesn't want dead people running all over his lands. At present he is trying to secure his hold over the north, just like Stannis. Granted Roose did not go to the aid of the wall like Stannis did, but why assume he won't when the magnitude of the threat is revealed to him? He would also have the support of the Iron Throne which Stannis would lack.

I think this might have to do with the fact that:

1. The Northerners, by and large, know Roose for the backstabbing treacherous snake that he really is.

2. As such, they would not follow him or willingly recognize his authority.

3. The North doesn't recognize the authority of Tommen Baratheon, so what good does it do if Roose has the Iron Throne's backing?

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Your assuming that Roose would help at the Wall. But we know that everyone south of the Wall doesn't believe the Others are coming. Roose would kill Jon, Jon loyalists, King and Queens men and Wildlings then leave the 100 NW members alone, until the Others come knocking on the Dreadforts door, at which point everyone is screwed

It's going to happen anyway I think. Dany saw herself fighting an army of ice on the Trident. If that's the Others how did they get so far down? That means they passed the Wall and the North.

The NW also doesn't have the necessary weapons. It needs more obsidian and whatever dragonsteel is. I think that by the time they have access to it it will be late.

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Interesting observations about the oath. Personally I believe Jon does incurs in some sort of oath breaking. However with maybe only the exception of Ygritter he's are not selfish reasons. I believe some vows are meant to be questioned otherwise by adhering to the literal interpretation of the oath a person may violate the most important part-the essence of said oath; just look at Aery's kingsguard. The essence of Jon's oath as a black brother is to protect the realms of men. No more. The rest is just empty trimmings in comparison with his true duty.

Besides, Jaime Lannister said it best-no matter what you do you will always incur in oathbreaking (paraphrasing here). For me the important part is the reasons behind it and Jon's reasons are correct ones- I am the sword in the darkness and in the end that must mean more than any oath.

What part of the oath do you think he broke? I see his "relations" with Ygritte as being in service to the Watch; I guess that's why I'm interpreting it this way-- everything comes back to service for the Watch. I like your KG reference a lot, btw. I think that Aery's KG broke their knight's vow by entertaining Aerys' "indulgences," which is similar to how I see Jon's interpretation of the NW vow.

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Also- I just want to point out. Jon Snow said the words. Jon Targaryen did not.

I agree with virtually everything you've said, BUT I don't want Jon to get out on a technicality. This is also why I don't want him to get out based on "dying."

Having said that, given everything that's happened — the assassination attempt and the Watch probably disintegrating because of that — I think it's equally ludicrous to get all shrill about Jon being "stuck in the Watch!" If GRRM intends for him to get out of it, he'll get out of it.

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Also- I just want to point out. Jon Snow said the words. Jon Targaryen did not.

The trouble with this is, that the vow is:

"Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no childrenI shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this and all nights to come.

Nobody cares what his name is.

If he wants to leave the Watch, he has to break his vows (or use Robb's will as an excuse, if he's the heir, of course).

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Wouldn't Jon, a son of Eddard Stark, helping Stannis retake the North from the Boltons go against the whole "win no glory" part of the vows? I'm pretty sure that if Jon was a part of retaking Winterfell, his familys home, it would win him quite a bit of glory in the eyes of the Northern lords still in the support of House Stark. Especially because it will help put a Stark back in Winterfell.

Now, I agree with you, supporting Stannis does benefit the Watch. But, It also requires Jon to leave his post and go South away from the Wall to fight the Boltons. I don't think leaving the Wall in this time, with the War against the Others looming, is really the best thing for the LC of the Watch to do. Unless it is revealed that the Boltons are in league with the Others.

Also, the Vows were probably written thousands of years ago and verbiage has probably changed over time, so it is possible that our interpretation of the vows is different. Maybe some of the lines, as written, were meant to say we don't take a part.

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What part of the oath do you think he broke? I see his "relations" with Ygritte as being in service to the Watch; I guess that's why I'm interpreting it this way-- everything comes back to service for the Watch. I like your KG reference a lot, btw. I think that Aery's KG broke their knight's vow by entertaining Aerys' "indulgences," which is similar to how I see Jon's interpretation of the NW vow.

Well, the Ygritte thing wasn't exactly an unwilling..ehem...service ;)

For me the most serious sort is when he allowed Mel to send Mance to escort Arya to the wall. He did this for personal reasons. Though I understand that it was his ''little sister'' he transgressed his duties even if it is in a passive way.

I think he was dragged to cast his lot with Stannis and therefore the neutrality was somehow breached. However I feel this is a positive thing. Like you said before, neutrality goes both ways and Jon by sticking to an strict and literal interpretation of his vows was going to do the watch no service. When times change you have to change as well otherwise you will be left behind. So even if it breaks with old traditions if it is in the interest of the Night Watch he is preserving the essence of his vow.

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Wouldn't Jon, a son of Eddard Stark, helping Stannis retake the North from the Boltons go against the whole "win no glory" part of the vows? I'm pretty sure that if Jon was a part of retaking Winterfell, his familys home, it would win him quite a bit of glory in the eyes of the Northern lords still in the support of House Stark. Especially because it will help put a Stark back in Winterfell.

I'm pretty sure the glory would be Stannis'. I think he'd insist on it. :P

Now, I agree with you, supporting Stannis does benefit the Watch. But, It also requires Jon to leave his post and go South away from the Wall to fight the Boltons. I don't think leaving the Wall in this time, with the War against the Others looming, is really the best thing for the LC of the Watch to do. Unless it is revealed that the Boltons are in league with the Others.

He only declared his intention to go South because Ramsay threatened the Wall. What is the appropriate course of action if someone threatens violence on the Watch? Should the Watch just bend over and say, "Thank you sir, may I have another?" just to keep the letter (not the spirit) of their vows?

Also, the Vows were probably written thousands of years ago and verbiage has probably changed over time, so it is possible that our interpretation of the vows is different. Maybe some of the lines, as written, were meant to say we don't take a part.

We can only interpret what we have. Anything else is speculation.

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It's going to happen anyway I think. Dany saw herself fighting an army of ice on the Trident. If that's the Others how did they get so far down? That means they passed the Wall and the North.

The NW also doesn't have the necessary weapons. It needs more obsidian and whatever dragonsteel is. I think that by the time they have access to it it will be late.

Ya, I'm with you on this. GMMR set up Dragonstone's obsidian reserve for that reason

(also would Dragonsteel be Valyrian Steel)

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Neutrality goes both ways

The Watch cannot "take no part" unless the Realm does the same with them.

When Aegon slew Black Harren and claimed his kingdom, Harren’s brother was Lord Commander on the Wall, with ten thousand swords to hand. He did not march. In the days when the Seven Kingdoms were seven kingdoms, not a generation passed that three or four of them were not at war. The Watch took no part. When the Andals crossed the narrow sea and swept away the kingdoms of the First Men, the sons of the fallen kings held true to their vows and remained at their posts.

Aegon did not demand Black Harren's brother be removed from the Nights Watch. The Andals did not demand the deaths of the heirs in the Watch for the Houses they conquered. Both sides took no part.

Yoren fingered the warrant ribbon with its blob of golden wax. “Pretty.” He spit. “Thing is, the boy’s in the Night’s Watch now. What he done back in the city don’t mean piss-all.”

“The queen’s not interested in your views, old man, and neither am I,” the officer said. “I’ll have the boy.”

“You’ll have no one,” Yoren said stubbornly. “There’s laws on such things.”

The gold cloak drew a shortsword. “Here’s your law.”

Yoren looked at the blade. “That’s no law, just a sword. Happens I got one too.”

The Iron Throne has chosen to use force to tale part in the NW.

Jon may not know of this instance but everyone at the Wall knows about the letter Tywin sent threatening no more men if they didn't choose Slynt. The Throne is trying to pick their new LC. Remember how Cotter Pyke and others bristled when Slynt suggest Stannis do the same.

Later we learn that the Throne did stop sending men.

Grand Maester Pycelle nodded ponderously. “I propose that we inform Castle Black that no more men will be sent to them until such time as Snow is gone.”

“Our new dromonds will need oarsmen,” said Aurane Waters. “Let us instruct the lords to send their poachers and thieves to me henceforth, instead of to the Wall.”

So we know the Watch was threatened and that the threat was carried through with once they did not comply.

Roose is the Iron Throne's choice. Everyone knows the Lannisters were behind the Red Wedding.

“My lords may not know,” said Qyburn, “but in the winesinks and pot shops of this city, there are those who suggest that the crown might have been somehow complicit in Lord Walder’s crime.”

The other councillors stared at him uncertainly. “Do you refer to the Red Wedding?” asked Aurane Waters. “Crime?” said Ser Harys. Pycelle cleared his throat noisily. Lord Gyles coughed.

Cersei was not slow to take his meaning. “Lord Walder must soon face the Father’s judgment. He is very old. Let the sparrows spit upon his memory. It has nought to do with us.”

“No,” said Ser Harys. “No,” said Lord Merryweather. “No one could think so,” said Pycelle. Lord Gyles coughed.

Roose went from leading Robb's army that was attacking Tywin to being Tywin's choice for Lord Paramount of the North. Since the Lannisters chose Roose and Roose was at the Red wedding and somehow managed to be the only Northern lord not killed or imprisoned it isn't exactly hard to figure out he was in on the Red Wedding and a Lannister pawn. If his masters are interfering with the Watch, why would anyone ever think Roose would not?

It all come down to “That’s no law, just a sword. Happens I got one too.”

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Well, the Ygritte thing wasn't exactly an unwilling..ehem...service

I

But the vow nowhere says 'don't ever have sex'. It is 'I'll take no wife and father no children'.

So, did Jon marry Ygritte? It's debatable, from the wildling's perspective; but from the Northmen's perspective things already look quite a bit less like the two marrying. Either way, though, Ygritte is dead; being a widower is no problem at the Wall, or Mormont's couldn't have joined.

Did he have children with Ygritte? Nope, that didn't happen either.

So, Jon is a bachelor or widower, but no married man, and has no children. In short, he has no family allegiances and duties that would interfere with his vow.

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Ya, I'm with you on this. GMMR set up Dragonstone's obsidian reserve for that reason

(also would Dragonsteel be Valyrian Steel)

Dany's dream where she burns enemies of ice portray her fighting political foes though-- she's reeacting the Trident scene from Rhaegar's perspective (though on dragonback), "melting" away Robert and the usurpers. I get the sense that this dream is not about battling wights, but her political foes- the ice is a metaphor.

And I think Jon's about to get a big gift for the Battle for the Dawn- from the crypts or the CotF.

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I think it's implied/interpreted to not have sex but more than half break this vow. It's like the KG they're not supposed to have sex either but you have people like Prince Lewyn Martell with a paramour.

Tyrion didn't want to go to the Wall because he wanted to still be able to have sex. Sex can lead to children obviously.

GRRM also made Jon sympathetic here because he killed Ygritte off before a possible bastard problem became an issue. She could have been like Val is now and a hostage and not have been able to have access to moon tea. Asha is in this position now possibly.

I think that dream was referring to the Others and I think the show also did foreshadowing of their own. Ice and Fire are going to destroy the realm and possibly will get as far as KL.

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Dany's dream where she burns enemies of ice portray her fighting political foes though-- she's reeacting the Trident scene from Rhaegar's perspective (though on dragonback), "melting" away Robert and the usurpers. I get the sense that this dream is not about battling wights, but her political foes- the ice is a metaphor.

And I think Jon's about to get a big gift for the Battle for the Dawn- from the crypts or the CotF.

It would be odd to have in the world where exists "Fire Magic" and "Ice Magic" to have in one conflict the fiery side symbolized as dragons/dragonfire and magically neural side as army covered in ice.

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Dany's dream where she burns enemies of ice portray her fighting political foes though-- she's reeacting the Trident scene from Rhaegar's perspective (though on dragonback), "melting" away Robert and the usurpers. I get the sense that this dream is not about battling wights, but her political foes- the ice is a metaphor.

And I think Jon's about to get a big gift for the Battle for the Dawn- from the crypts or the CotF.

Good point, but still wouldn't the Others be considered usurpers technically, their goal (as we know so far) is to kill men and become the dominent species

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It would be odd to have in the world where exists "Fire Magic" and "Ice Magic" to have in one conflict the fiery side symbolized as dragons/dragonfire and magically neural side as army covered in ice.

Yes and she also had a moment where she saw ants crawling up a wall and she compared it to the Wall.

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Good point, but still wouldn't the Others be considered usurpers technically, their goal (as we know so far) is to kill men and become the dominent species

Actually, we don't know that. That's what we think. And it's for another discussion.

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