65 replies to this topic

[Brewmaster]

Fender, on 01 August 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Didn't Bloodraven give Bran a warning that warging into birds too much might make him never feel like being on the ground again? Or was that part of Varamyr's intro?

That was Haggan in the varamyr chapter.

[poortheon]

Haggan's warg rules might not apply to the 3EC and Bran.. they aren't normal wargs are they?

[Brewmaster]

I don't think Haggan's rules apply to anyone. We have seen oth skin changers in boars and birds shadow cats, and alley cats that don't seem to be evil or worse for wear, despite being against Haggan's rules.

[Matt Sand]

Haggon's rules read like "keep your hands outside the blankets or you'll go blind" to me. That is, I don't think he has any particular knowledge or authority on the "rules"

"To mate as wolf with wolf was abomination.". Yeah, right.  I don't believe for a minute that Haggon refrained from that particular temptation.  Would you?

[Arya Targaryen]

Matt Sand, on 02 August 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

"To mate as wolf with wolf was abomination.". Yeah, right.  I don't believe for a minute that Haggon refrained from that particular temptation.  Would you?

I don't know about Haggon, but Varamyr broke all rules, this one included. And he warged the FEMALE wolf while mating...

Haggon has a lot of rules, but somehow I think the Children of the Forest don't keep any of these (including eation human (children) flesh, or warging a bird), and they were the first wargs/greenseers. Actually, Most powerful greenseers could warg any living things, it could mean fellow children as well. But who knows.

Bran broke the rule of warging humans, warging birds; Arya broke it with eating human flesh and warging cats (not exactly a rule, but Haggon said you shouldn't try). Jon so far... I don't think he broke any, but who knows what will come once Ghost won't find enough food but they have lots of dead bodies...

[lojzelote]

RedBean, on 01 August 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Bran doesn't know the rules. He has only started with his abilities as a greenseer and he doesn't realize that he's abusing his power in this way. It's an evil act, but Bran himself is not evil, because he isn't aware that this is wrong. I think part of his character growth will focus on him learning about all the rules of greenseeing and to not to use it as a way to compensate for the loss of his legs..

He knows he hurts Hodor all the same. He knowingly hurts other human being because he feels bored.
It doesn't really matter if he knows the rules exist or not. He must know what he's doing is wrong because his fun causes someone other harm.

[poortheon]

Isn't the chief #1 taboo of warging the whole: taking over other humans/eating human flesh

the others like warging cats & ravens and having sexual relations with animals.. i see them as more 'guidlines' (insert Jack Sparrow Reference)

[Aemrys]

I think the situation with Bran and normal wargs is vastly different. Bran is still very young, and he holds immense power. On top of that he's a cripple. It's only natural that he gets restless. After all he was an extremely active person prior to his "accident". He knows warging Hodor is wrong, but he is simply too bored and the temptation is too strong. I'm sure if someone told him how awful it was to do it, he'd stop as he after all has a good heart. Even if he didn't, I can seriously understand why he'd continue here and there. Just imagine his situation: Is by nature very active with his body, can't move, gets bored after Bloodraven gets tired, has the power to do normal stuff through Hodor.

It's vastly different posing the non-human warging rule to say Varamyr, than it is to Bran. A young cripple that is stuck within a cave.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

luckily Bran will be trained by Bloodraven

BR rules consists of:

-Dont rebel against your rightful halfbrother king

-"Never walk again" (bullshit Brodor walks no prob)

-Ask the trees, im busy

[Teal'c]

Foxhound, on 01 August 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

Bran may not know the "rules" or rather the taboos that the Wildlings associate with warging, but he does seem to understand what he's doing to Hodor is wrong (he feels how Hodor is reacting, and he doesn't tell the Reeds, even after the first accidental time). And I think he is getting tempted to misuse it, since he goes from warging into Hodor during dangerous situations when it seemed necessary to when he's bored and wants to explore with the Reeds.

Agree. I think it was appropriate for Bran to control Hodor when it meant their lives; examples are keeping him quiet in the tower at Queenscrow and fighting their way to Leaf's cave. However, when he controls Hodor for frivolous reasons it is wrong and he knows it because he can sense Hodor cringing.

[Ser_Patreck]

Haggan's rules are bullshit.

See. He says that warging any animal other than a wolf is bad... Yet, we see people warging Wild Boars, and Eagles and no one seems to hold them in contempt for it. At least, not any more than for the fact they're wargs in the first place.

He says it's wrong to warg Birds... Yet, BR's cave is full of birds. Warged by CotF, no less. And who invented/discovered the art of warging in the first place? That's right, the Children.

The points about not mating and not eating human flesh are probably more about avoiding potentially disgusting/traumatic situations than anything else.

I have a problem only with warging other human beings, but the fact that Bran don't choose to warg Hodor the first couple times, but rather, suddenly finds himself in Hodor's skin, point towards a deeper mystery here.

[Naathi Prince]

Flig, on 01 August 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

There's a difference between me playing ball in the house, and me taking over another human being, sensing the fear and harm I'm causing, and doing it anyway because "Fuck it, I'm bored and I wanna go explore some tunnels."

he's been raised a lord tho, he's been told his needs come before someone like hodor's

[lojzelote]

Ser_Patreck, on 02 August 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Haggan's rules are bullshit.

See. He says that warging any animal other than a wolf is bad... Yet, we see people warging Wild Boars, and Eagles and no one seems to hold them in contempt for it. At least, not any more than for the fact they're wargs in the first place.

He says it's wrong to warg Birds... Yet, BR's cave is full of birds. Warged by CotF, no less. And who invented/discovered the art of warging in the first place? That's right, the Children.

The points about not mating and not eating human flesh are probably more about avoiding potentially disgusting/traumatic situations than anything else.

I have a problem only with warging other human beings, but the fact that Bran don't choose to warg Hodor the first couple times, but rather, suddenly finds himself in Hodor's skin, the point towards a deeper mystery here.

No.

You're mixing two things up.

Eating human meat, mating with a beast and skinchanging in a human being are called abominations.

The rest are only an advice, the point of which is that warging dogs is easiest.

Edited by lojzelote, 02 August 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

I think taking another person's "skin" is a warg's ultimate and most insidious act. We see varamyr attempt to transfer hisself into the wildling woman and she violently defends herself, biting off her tongue in desperation. When Bran reaches out to Hodor, there is not the same malicious intent and though Hodor is afraid, Bran does try to comfort him and I think that, at least partly, Hodor eventually willingly succumbs.

Warging another human may be the most despicable act a skinchanger can do. But I don't see that stopping many of them.
I have a theory that Arya will develop her skinhanging abilities, perhaps under the tutelage of an Izembaro, and her ultimate attack will be to possess another person's body in order to carry out an assassination. She can "reach out" to them and in their panic they will either kill themselves or she can take control and commit "suicide". Then she can stroll over and take a little filet-o-face and assume that person's identity. A great trick to pull on someone at court in KL I think.

[Budj]

My guess is these "rules of the road" are meant to establish a "code of ethics" for wargs that allows them to not be hunted down and killed by normal people.  If people believe that "wargs have rules" then those used to magical shit north of the wall will be less likely to fear them.  Bloodraven's tactics will enlighten us on how serious to take this as we learn more..but I doubt there are very serious consequences besides being singled out as an evil warg guy.

[Brewmaster]

Budj, on 02 August 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

My guess is these "rules of the road" are meant to establish a "code of ethics" for wargs that allows them to not be hunted down and killed by normal people.  If people believe that "wargs have rules" then those used to magical shit north of the wall will be less likely to fear them.  Bloodraven's tactics will enlighten us on how serious to take this as we learn more..but I doubt there are very serious consequences besides being singled out as an evil warg guy.

I would say that Sixskins is actually "proof" that Haggan's rules carry no consequences. He has been breaking them relentlentlessly all his life. Carved himself out a little place in the world, where nearby villagers had to pay him homage and basically lived like a Lord.

Now Varamyr was an evil bastard, no doubt, but there is nothing to suggest from his story that he's ever suffered any consequences for his warg actions. He's not crazy, he hasn't lost his personality in his wolves, or his birds or his cats or polar bears like Haggan suggests will happen if you warg animals other than wolves. He's fucked as animals, yet doesn't seem to be obsessed with it and still fucks women in his human form. He's eaten human flesh as an animal, but it hasn't made him a cannibal when in human form.

Haggan's rules are complete bullshit. It's basically just rules of etiquette...and seems to be for the most part rules he made up since nearly every other warg we meet breaks some of his guidelines.

[Lord of Insignificance]

Its alright because now Bran Wags trees. If you thought he had trouble walking before, wait until you see him try to walk as a weirwood. its pure justice for Hodor

[Ser_Patreck]

People seem to think Varamyr Sixskins was an evil bastard because he broke the rules, when there's actually no causal relationship there at all. Rather, I'd say he broke the rules out of spite because he's an evil bastard.

[unRobert]

And gods know what abominations RIckon has been getting into...


Theon I tWOW:

...Davos approached the King with a bewildered look in his eyes, mumbling with blood stained lips...

[Im no Ser]

lojzelote, on 02 August 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

No.

You're mixing two things up.

Eating human meat, mating with a beast and skinchanging in a human being are called abominations.

The rest are only an advice, the point of which is that warging dogs is easiest.

Exactly.  Haggon's comments about not warging non-wolf creatures are not cast as an abomination.  It's merely advice, and advice that reflects his own bias as someone who wargs into wolves.

I don't think there is any magical cost for breaking the rules.  IMO the prologue is there to show that Bran is casually doing things that gave pause to someone as morally bankrupt as Varamyr.

Teal, on 02 August 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Agree. I think it was appropriate for Bran to control Hodor when it meant their lives; examples are keeping him quiet in the tower at Queenscrow and fighting their way to Leaf's cave. However, when he controls Hodor for frivolous reasons it is wrong and he knows it because he can sense Hodor cringing.

Agreed.  Of course he knows it is wrong.

I'm always drawn to Bran's conversation with Maester Luwin when Bran complains that Hodor won't go into the crypts, and he wishes he could just smack Hodor on the head like Old Nan does.  Bran immediately knows it's wrong, and quickly says he wouldn't do it even before Luwin follows up with his "Hodor is a man, not a beast to be beaten" line.

He's knowingly, needlessly and repeatedly violating Hodor's free will.  He's yet to pass the point of no return, but Bran is in a very bad place.

Slightly OT, but this is a parrallel for all the non-Rickon Stark kids.  Bran, Sansa and Arya are all with (at best) morally questionable people who are trying to get them to lose their sense of selves.