185 replies to this topic

[Alric Stark]

Ok so I am trying to see what people think the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar is. As I see it there are three possibilities.

1) Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. This is the Baratheon/Stark belief. I don't think this is true. Like all lies however I think there is a level of truth.

2) Rhaegar and Lyanna fell madly in love, and forsaking the entire Kingdom were secretly married. Lyanna swooning for the Silver Haired Dragon. I call B.S. on this one as well.

3)Rhaegar discovered that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. This led him to crown her the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenal. Lyanna was smitten, but promised to Robert. Rhaegar "steals" her and attempts to woo her. This includes a "marriage", roses, harp playing etc.  Lyanna decides nope, Rhaegar decides like it or not the Prince who was Promised needs to be born, rapes her and she carries the child to term. She enacts the promises from Ned to not hold the parentage or how the child was conceived against him, and raise him as his own. Ned agrees.

Some reasons I am partial to #3.
-Lyanna is a Stark: From every Stark we have seen honor is important. I can't imagine she up and decides to dishonor the pact her family made with the Baratheons.
-Lyanna mentions to Ned that she does not think Robert will give up his philandering ways once married. Why would she all of a sudden be ok with Rhaegar being unfaithful? I don't think she would be.
-I could misremember this, but I think Ned mentions "promises". That would cover not only raising the child, and not telling who the father was, but not holding the method of conception against him.
-This explains why the Roses are there, and why she is trapped in the Tower.
-It seems like GRRM. It is very grey. Rhaegar is not the shining perfect Targaryen. He puts the Prophecy over his honor and nobility.

So which theory do you subscribe to 1, 2, 3 or another option?

[Neeps on a Breastplate]

I subscribe to theory 2... I just don't see Rhaegar raping anyone. My two main reasons:

Quote

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

The petals would only be dead and black if she'd hung on to them for a long time... and gals just don't usually get all that sentimental about their rapists. My guess is that these are the roses from the tourney.

Quote

The Knight gave her a curious look. “You are your brother’s sister, in truth.”
“Viserys?” She did not understand.
“No,” he answered. “Rhaegar.”

Ser Jorah compares Dany to Rhaegar after she commands her bloodriders not to rape the Lhazareen. I don't see how he'd make this comparison knowing that Rhaegar had kidnapped and raped a noble woman. Seems like a big hint from GRRM to me.

[Michael Snow]

Neeps on a Breastplate, on 02 August 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Ser Jorah compares Dany to Rhaegar after she commands her bloodriders not to rape the Lhazareen. I don't see how he'd make this comparison knowing that Rhaegar had kidnapped and raped a noble woman. Seems like a big hint from GRRM to me.

Good call, and good point. Add that to the fact that Ned doesn't seem to feel any personal ill will towards Rhaegar in his POVs, and it seems pretty unlikely Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

[Fire Eater]

2. definitely

Alric Stark, on 02 August 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Some reasons I am partial to #3.
-Lyanna is a Stark: From every Stark we have seen honor is important. I can't imagine she up and decides to dishonor the pact her family made with the Baratheons.
-Lyanna mentions to Ned that she does not think Robert will give up his philandering ways once married. Why would she all of a sudden be ok with Rhaegar being unfaithful? I don't think she would be.
-I could misremember this, but I think Ned mentions "promises". That would cover not only raising the child, and not telling who the father was, but not holding the method of conception against him.
-This explains why the Roses are there, and why she is trapped in the Tower.
-It seems like GRRM. It is very grey. Rhaegar is not the shining perfect Targaryen. He puts the Prophecy over his honor and nobility.

So which theory do you subscribe to 1, 2, 3 or another option?

1. Lyanna was a teenage girl pumped with hormones, and she wasn't crazy about marrying Robert given his philandering.
2. Rhaegar wasn't philandering like Robert, and he wasn't cheating on Lyanna. He was fond of Elia, his wife, but he loved Lyanna. Rhaegar also knew there was precedent for taking a second wife when Aegon I took both his sisters to wife.
3. The promise could just have been for Ned to protect and look after the child.
4. She wasn't trapped, doctors will tell you that pregnant women several months along can't travel long distances. Why would the Kingsguard guard a kidnapped woman in her tower, when they have more pressing duties? If she was Rhaegar's wife and carrying an heir to the Iron Throne that would explain their presence.

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[TeamDanyArya]

Ahh, those seemingly small but winds up being gigantic at some point in the story hints from Martin.

Personally, I can see #3 being the most realistic possibility, perhaps without R raping L but perhaps L let her guard down for one night of passion. Who knows. With the Stark family, they do take honor seriously and I can see that scenario being highly likely.

Or, with all of us thinking R + L = J, we could all be totally wrong and Ned really is Jon's father and his mother was some chick named Wylla.

[Currawong]

I don't agree with #1, and I don't see any reason for #3 to involve a rape. If Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped as in #2 and Lyanna fell pregnant, her situation would have changed dramatically once Rhaegar was killed at the Trident.    That is especially so if we also assume that she and Rhaegar were married, thus partly explaining the presence of three senior KG members.

If we assume that R+L = J, then Ned taking Lyanna's child and vowing to raise him as his own would be his way of protecting her honor, given that Rheager was still married to Elia and bigamy doesn't seem to be popularly accepted in Westeros.  Sure, Rhaegar was a Tararyan and they lived by different rules, but Lyanna was a Stark and bigamy wouldn't go down well back in the North.    If Ned agreed to take her child as his, and helped foster the idea that Lyanna was kidnapped, rather than eloping willingly, it would be a means of protecting her good name and honor, especially once she died.   The three KG members who also knew the truth are dead, so it's really only Ned's word about what really happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar, and he's going to continue the story that protects her best.

Edited by Currawong, 02 August 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[E-Ro]

Lyanna was 14 years old. For all intents and purposes the property of lord rickard to marry off to whomever he pleased. she may have went willingly but this does not change the fact that he did in fact steal her. Rhaegar got what was coming to him.

[Winterfell is Burning]

E-Ro, on 02 August 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Lyanna was 14 years old. For all intents and purposes the property of lord rickard to marry off to whomever he pleased. she may have went willingly but this does not change the fact that he did in fact steal her. Rhaegar got what was coming to him.

Pretty much. You take the bethroted of another man in that era, you end up with a warhammer in your face. It is known.

But anyway, I think 3, or a variation of it, might be the most likely scenario. I'm convinced Rhaegar was on his way to be as mad as his daddy, even if he wasn't quite there yet.

[Bran the Deciduous]

TeamDanyArya, on 02 August 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Or, with all of us thinking R + L = J, we could all be totally wrong and Ned really is Jon's father and his mother was some chick named Wylla.

So not going to happen.

[Bran the Deciduous]

E-Ro, on 02 August 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Lyanna was 14 years old. For all intents and purposes the property of lord rickard to marry off to whomever he pleased. she may have went willingly but this does not change the fact that he did in fact steal her. Rhaegar got what was coming to him.

Not the same as raping her though.

[Matt Sand]

Bran the Cute, on 02 August 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

So not going to happen.

I reckon it will.  Something like #3 was probably Martin's original intention, but I'm betting he's so annoyed at everyone working out R+L=J that he's decided, instead, just to kill Jon off and take R+L off in a completely different direction.

Maybe...  Ned + Ashara Dayne = (dead) Jon ...  and R + L = Young Griff.

[Bran the Deciduous]

Matt Sand, on 02 August 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I reckon it will.  Something like #3 was probably Martin's original intention, but I'm betting he's so annoyed at everyone working out R+L=J that he's decided, instead, just to kill Jon off and take R+L off in a completely different direction.

Maybe...  Ned + Ashara Dayne = (dead) Jon ...  and R + L = Young Griff.

Why have you decided this? GrrM actually says he's not changing the story. Aegon is a fake too, obviously  

I think 2 is what happened.

[mcb]

Alric Stark, on 02 August 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Ok so I am trying to see what people think the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar is. As I see it there are three possibilities.

1) Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. This is the Baratheon/Stark belief. I don't think this is true. Like all lies however I think there is a level of truth.

2) Rhaegar and Lyanna fell madly in love, and forsaking the entire Kingdom were secretly married. Lyanna swooning for the Silver Haired Dragon. I call B.S. on this one as well.

3)Rhaegar discovered that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. This led him to crown her the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenal. Lyanna was smitten, but promised to Robert. Rhaegar "steals" her and attempts to woo her. This includes a "marriage", roses, harp playing etc.  Lyanna decides nope, Rhaegar decides like it or not the Prince who was Promised needs to be born, rapes her and she carries the child to term. She enacts the promises from Ned to not hold the parentage or how the child was conceived against him, and raise him as his own. Ned agrees.

Some reasons I am partial to #3.

So you don't believe Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. But you believe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, gave her flowers and then raped her? That's the same.

[E-Ro]

Bran the Cute, on 02 August 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Not the same as raping her though.

I didnt say he raped her. If you look at it from a modern pov it would be statutory, but in westeros I geuss 14 is ok? giving birth to jon is what killed her, 14 is to young to have kids especially without modern medicene. So in a way rhaegar killed her. Anyway 3 or a version of it is most likely. The more I think about this the angrier I get, wtf rhaeger what was this guys problem, sex with a 14 year old and losing the only battle he ever fought in the guy is a loser.

[Bran the Deciduous]

E-Ro, on 02 August 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

I didnt say he raped her. If you look at it from a modern pov it would be statutory, but in westeros I geuss 14 is ok? giving birth to jon is what killed her, 14 is to young to have kids especially without modern medicene. So in a way rhaegar killed her. Anyway 3 or a version of it is most likely. The more I think about this the angrier I get, wtf rhaeger what was this guys problem, sex with a 14 year old and losing the only battle he ever fought in the guy is a loser.

Where is it said she was 14? I thought she was 16 at HH?

I really don't see why 3 is more likely than 2. 2 is the overwhelmingly more probable scenario as far as I can see. Lyanna has the wolf's blood which leads her to be, you know, like wild and impulsive. She's very young so falling in love is plausible. And she still has those roses on her death bed. Come on, its 2.

Edited by Bran the Cute, 02 August 2012 - 09:19 PM.

[E-Ro]

Bran the Cute, on 02 August 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Where is it said she was 14? I thought she was 16 at HH?

I might be wrong I thought she was 14.
Edit: Just checked she was 15.

Edited by E-Ro, 02 August 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[Barristan the Boss]

E-Ro, on 02 August 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

I didnt say he raped her. If you look at it from a modern pov it would be statutory, but in westeros I geuss 14 is ok? giving birth to jon is what killed her, 14 is to young to have kids especially without modern medicene. So in a way rhaegar killed her. Anyway 3 or a version of it is most likely. The more I think about this the angrier I get, wtf rhaeger what was this guys problem, sex with a 14 year old and losing the only battle he ever fought in the guy is a loser.

In that sense Jon killed her, not Rhaegar. I think it's #3 without the rape part. Like after hearing about Brandon, Rickard et al being slaughtered probably made her realize what a huge mistake she made. And by all accounts, Rhaegar was an honorable fellow, so he may at least have been troubled regarding his decision.

Yes she was 15, but again this is Westeros, so that's in the ballpark of the age for marriage and child bearing (albeit a bit young still).

ETA: Actually I'll say it's between #2 and #3. Like #2 plus some regret.

Edited by Sully's Moustache, 02 August 2012 - 09:22 PM.

[J. Stargaryen]

Neeps on a Breastplate, on 02 August 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

<snip>

Ser Jorah compares Dany to Rhaegar after she commands her bloodriders not to rape the Lhazareen. I don't see how he'd make this comparison knowing that Rhaegar had kidnapped and raped a noble woman. Seems like a big hint from GRRM to me.

Nice catch! Obviously Ser Jorah wouldn't know one way or the other what happened at the ToJ, but this seems like one of those author-to-reader clues.

[Summers Dragon]

Lyanna born 268
Died 283
Tourney @ HH 281AL

281-268= making Lyanna 13
283-268=making Lyanna 15

[Winterfell is Burning]

Yes, in the Middle Ages, girls would usually marry at 16 or older, mostly because having children too young increased the chances of dying in childbirth. Lowborn ones would get married even older.

In ASOIAF itself, you see that only the Targaryens, coming from a different culture, married this young; Catelyn, Cersei, Lysa, Joanna Lannister, just to mention a few, all got married much older.

Bran the Cute, on 02 August 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Where is it said she was 14? I thought she was 16 at HH?

She was born in 268 AL, according to Wiki, meaning she was 12 or 13 in Harrenhal, 13 or 14 when she was taken, 14 or 15 when she died. Mind you, not that Wiki is always correct, but it's enough to given an idea about how young she was- Rhaegar was NINE YEARS older than a girl that might have been THIRTEEN when he took her.