Battle of the Fords

[Wales338]

So I have noticed while I've been on this site that alot of people blame Robb for not informing his uncle to allow Lord Tywin to return to the West. This doesn't make too much sense to me' because I can see no one else to bame but Edmure.

Robb ordered his uncle to hold Riverrun, which in no way possible implies that his uncle should be involved in any offensive battles. On top of that his uncle ordered the Northmen which had been kept at the Twins to ensure Lord Freys contuined loyality to march down to the fords. Not only is Edmure disobeying his King starting an offensive battle but he is moving the Kings soldiers around without his knowledge or permission.

The next thing is why should Robb have told his uncle and if he could have how would he? Robb knows that Lord Twyin is a brilliant commander and Robb also knows that the only way for this plan to work would be for no hint of the plan to reach Ty win. The only way to keep a seceret is to only tell the people who need to know, which helps prevent unwanted ears from finding out. First off we don't know when Robb developed this plan. If the plan was made when in the west their would be no way for them to inform Edmure. As it was mentioned in the series somewhere (sorry I cant remember from where) that ravens are shot down, riders are taken and questioned. This is defently not a secure way to ensure such a top seceret plan is kept. Secondly, Robb wouldn't have been able to know if this would work untill after he was in the west, and he couldn't have informed his uncle about this possible plan before he left. As we have seen in the series, spies are very commonly used, and Edmure does not seem like the type of person who is good at keeping secerets, but thats just my opinion.

[mchaza]

He should of sent a rider to inform Edmure of his plans, which would of involved Roose capturing Harrenhold and moving to Riverrun to combine forces and march on the golden tooth and into the Westerlands, and once Tywins forces have been crushed by Rob Stark, they would combine and march on Lannisport and Casterly Rock, End the War, Stannis wins Happy Ending.

[Chaircat Meow]

Edmure didn't engage in an offensive battle, he tried to hold the fords over one of the forks of the Trident to prevent Tywin's passage through Tully lands.

I think 'hold RR' is pretty much vague enough to cover what Edmure did. There are ,after all, many ways to hold a castle. On other threads many seem convinced the only way for Jon to hold Castle Black is to attack WF (although this may not be true).

And Edmure is in charge of defensive operations around RR until Robb gets back so he can dispose of troops as he pleases.

I think Robb and the Blackfish were arrogant and didn't full confide their plans in Edmure, and then shoveled the blame on him when it all went wrong.

[Wales338]

I will agrre with you that Edmure is incharge of the troops AT Riverrun. He has no right however to order men that Robb had left at the Twins to move considering that they were Northmen too, so Edmure wasn't even their leige lord.

Edmure also knew however that Lord Tywin was returning to the West so Riverrun was under no threat. Edmure just wanted to win some glory to make up for his past mistakes in my opinion.

@Mchaza As I mentioned earlier riders are taken and questioned especially when they are crossing enemy territory

[Chaircat Meow]

I will agrre with you that Edmure is incharge of the troops AT Riverrun. He has no right however to order men that Robb had left at the Twins to move considering that they were Northmen too, so Edmure wasn't even their leige lord.

Edmure also knew however that Lord Tywin was returning to the West so Riverrun was under no threat. Edmure just wanted to win some glory to make up for his past mistakes in my opinion.

@Mchaza As I mentioned earlier riders are taken and questioned especially when they are crossing enemy territory

Edmure is effectively the Lord Paramount of all the riverlands. He isn't just in charge of RR. The armies are basically combined at this stage, so it doesn't seem weird for the king's uncle to give orders to northmen.

He doesn't know exactly what Tywin plans to do. He could be attempting to lure Robb into the riverlands for all Edmure knows.

[Frey Pie]

Wales you make a good point i hadnt thought of before. Edmure does take it upon himself to order Ser Helman and Roose to link up and take Harrenhal. This does go beyond what he should be allowed do. However it cant be argued against that Robb was too vague. Even if he had concocted this plan while in the West he could have sent a strong force to RR with orders. A few riders might be picked off put 300 or so?

Then again it was a good move by Edmure. He caused Tywin a fair number of casualties, scored a victory and robbed him of his HQ. Unfortunately for him he also let Tywin close enough to the Tyrells to win the BW

[Wales338]

IIRC Edmure makes the comment that Tywin was returning west and that he was going to bleen him every step of the way. You are correct about Edmure being the Lord Paramount at that stage but Robb left forces at the Twins under a Glover? (I think I could be wrong). You don't see Ser Rodrik ordering men around in the Riverlands however or in Moat Callin however. As the Lord Paramount, his orders do not surpass the orders of the King.

[Frey Pie]

Edmure is effectively the Lord Paramount of all the riverlands. He isn't just in charge of RR. The armies are basically combined at this stage, so it doesn't seem weird for the king's uncle to give orders to northmen.

He doesn't know exactly what Tywin plans to do. He could be attempting to lure Robb into the riverlands for all Edmure knows.

I would have assumed that if anything Edmures right to command would be restricted to Tully soldiers no? Unless he was specifically granted the title or right to do so. He is Robbs greatest bannerman but not his second in command. It would be like Stafford ordering about troops in the West without orders from Tywin

[Wales338]

But if Robb had sent a strong force of like 300 hundred men to deliever the orders that would defently raise questions wouldn't it? If I was Tywin I would be defently wondering why 300 soldiers would be leaving the fighting for no reason.

[Chaircat Meow]

I would have assumed that if anything Edmures right to command would be restricted to Tully soldiers no? Unless he was specifically granted the title or right to do so. He is Robbs greatest bannerman but not his second in command. It would be like Stafford ordering about troops in the West without orders from Tywin

I took it he was basically c-in-c of Stark and Tully forces in the riverlands until Robb returned from the west. Greatest bannermen and Robb's uncle don't forget.

[Frey Pie]

But if Robb had sent a strong force of like 300 hundred men to deliever the orders that would defently raise questions wouldn't it? If I was Tywin I would be defently wondering why 300 soldiers would be leaving the fighting for no reason.

I guess it would and perhaps 300 is a bit extreme but Tywin has made the decision to go home. He think he has time to set everything right there, beat Robb and get to KL to defend it before Renly or Stannis take it. I dont think the penny would have dropped. Its already a pretty obvious plan

[Frey Pie]

I took it he was basically c-in-c of Stark and Tully forces in the riverlands until Robb returned from the west. Greatest bannermen and Robb's uncle don't forget.

Robb uncle who definately defers to his own uncle on military matters at least. I would have said he was c-in-c of the Riverlanders but not the Northmen. Northmen dont give off the vibe that just anyone can command them. Roose did what Edmure said for his own reasons i have no doubt

[Im no Ser]

I am not 100% certain that Robb and the Blackfish were being honest with Edmure.

They needed him to marry a Frey girl - picked by Lord Walder - to fix Robb's Jeyne Westerling mess. By convincing Edmure - who isn't the brightest guy in the world - that he made a major military mistake they were able to in effect guilt him into accepting the marriage.

[Wales338]

If Tywin hadn't been delayed by Edmure however Stannis would have already taken King's Landing and it would be a much much different story.

[oakenhelm]

Just want to add that aside from this debate, the chapter covering this battle is outstanding. Great writing

[Wales338]

@I'm no ser Yes Robb did break his marriage vow but he is still a Stark and I cannot see him lying to his uncle to get him to marry a Frey. As his King he can order his uncle to marry the Frey so the lie is not needed.

[Blackfish Tully]

Any attempt to inform Edmure of the plans carry a risk of them being discovered by Tywin Lannister. I quess the thought that Edmure would call his banners and actually attack the Lannister force never occured to Robb and the Blackfish., It was a pretty risky gambit by Edmure, if he was routed in that battle he could have put Riverrun in risk of being captured.

[Frey Pie]

I am not 100% certain that Robb and the Blackfish were being honest with Edmure.

They needed him to marry a Frey girl - picked by Lord Walder - to fix Robb's Jeyne Westerling mess. By convincing Edmure - who isn't the brightest guy in the world - that he made a major military mistake they were able to in effect guilt him into accepting the marriage.

I dont think so. As Wales pointed out Robb can order Edmure to marry and as the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands his hand is one of Robbs greatest assets. Im in no way saying it was Edmures fault but for a person who was trained in warfare all his life Robbs plan should be pretty obvious. Then again nobody else in RR realised it either

[Frey Pie]

Any attempt to inform Edmure of the plans carry a risk of them being discovered by Tywin Lannister. I quess the thought that Edmure would call his banners and actually attack the Lannister force never occured to Robb and the Blackfish., It was a pretty risky gambit by Edmure, if he was routed in that battle he could have put Riverrun in risk of being captured.

I dont think it matters if Tywin finds out. Tywin wants to go home and defeat Robb. Of course Robbs going to get his Northern army and Tully army together to face him. Hes expecting this but still thinks he can win. Perhaps he feels he can trap Robb before Edmure and Roose catch up

Really this was a terrible move from Tywin, which is unusual for such a strong leader. CR and Lannisport were not under threat. Its different to Robbs situation with the Ironborn in the North

[Wales338]

I don't think this was a bad move on Tywins part at all. A lord who cannot defend is own people is no lord at all. He has no choice but to face Robb while he is attacking and burning his lands or both his bannermen and the realm starts to fear Tywin Lannister less then they did. This is unacceptable in feudal society especially with the image that Tywin has created of himself.