[ADWD Spoilers] Harrenhal's curse

[Ciazio]

Let's start saying that this is not a "theory" of mine about Harrenhal, this thread is just a gathering of facts that stroke me whilst re-reading the books.

My purpose is to try and discover what kind of reasoning made GRRM before coming out with the description/consequences of Harrenhal's curse and to figure out on what bases he may have builted it.

So - long breath - let's start:

Harrenhal was held by 6 noble families and all of them extinguished whilst living in the castle or after living there for a long time.

I exclude Clegane, Hoat, Bolton, Slynt, Baelish and others because they never "lived" there, they just occupied the castle for some weeks or none at all.

Clues:

N°1:

The Whents, of all the 6 families cited above, are the one of which we know more. Many of the Whent's women were sterile, with the notable exception of Lady Minisa, who went to live in Riverrun and still had some miscarriages and stillborn children.

N°2:

Thanks to Jaime, we know that even Pia, one of Harrenhal's serving girl, is barren. In AFFC, after having told his squire that if he loved her he should have bedded her, Jaime thoughts something like this:

You can be sure, you won't leave her with child, she's been fucking the whole garrison and had never had a child. The girl is probably barren.

Moreover, Jaime says often that the girl has never travelled afar from the huge castle.

N°3:

Thanks to Gendry, we also know the only long-living man in the castle: the smith. The only one perpetually surrounded by heavy metal.

Conclusion:

Take this with a pinch of salt: we, the readers, have knowledge of something that, in the long run, can cause death and bareness of the people living nearby. To protect yourself from this material's emissions you need a heavy metal cover.

You can see where I'm going, right? Yes, "uranium" and "nuclear energy".

Questions:

Is Harrenhal infested by some sort of "nuclear magic"?

Is it built over a mine of "uranium"?

Is the "nuclear curse" caused by the dragonfire bath the castle has suffered during Aegon's conquest?

Is the curse related with the book Roose Bolton read and burnt in his room's fireplace?

Obviously, I'm not saying that the "curse" has the same exact effects of nuclear radiations, just that some of them reminded me of radiations. In example, there are no evidences of mutations (though there are between the men living near Valyria, but this is another story).

[Brony Stark]

So dragonfire is nuclear... could work.

[snowboard_season_is_coming]

Still not enough proof.

Give me hair loss and I'm a believer.

The smith probably has less protection than knights in full plate armor,and nobody sleeps under a lead blanket.

But nice catch with the barren-ness.

You might be on to something, but I don't think radioactivity.

[Rohed]

Could be related to the doom of valyria. Dragon fire = radiation

[rmholt]

I was sort of wondering if this would link the downfall of the Ironborn and their current state of grubbing in the water and dirt to the curse of Harrenhal.

People do avoid Valyria as if it were a nuclear wasteland but a volcanic wasteland could be scary - note the extensive dangers of falling into hot water in Yellowstone. The firewyrms might have been loosed, flora and fauna that thrive in hot water may be thriving. It sounds like something similar happened in Hardhome. Also something weird happened in the Neck.

Pia may have a garden of the components of moon tea - who knows. Jaime doesnt even know if Pia had kids - he totally pulled that out of his butt.

I'd like to know more about that book Roose burned.

[rmholt]

Also the "lead" aprons used to shield against x-radiation are actually made of other materials particularly tin making them stannous.

[tze]

The idea that dragonfire might produce long-lasting "radiation-esque" effects is an intriguing one. We know Mantarys, which lies to the north of Valyria, is known to produce "monsters" that do sound remarkably like mutations caused by radiation. The idea of a certain disease (greyscale) coming about in the Sorrows, a place once plagued by dragonfire, would also fit with the idea. (Yes, I know stories say that greyscale was a curse called down by Garin, but it's certainly possible that the clash between dragonfire and whatever magic is at work on the Rhoyne ended up "birthing" this particular disease.)

Rhaenys's Hill contains the Dragonpit, so if dragonfire produces adverse effects separate from the flame itself, you'd think some aftereffects would be present there. Are there any structures atop Rhaenys's Hill? The map of King's Landing seems to show Flea Bottom situated closest to Rhaenys's Hill---if this area was known as a place that caused sickness, that might explain why the city's biggest slum happens to be situated (near) there.

Stannis had already been named Lord of Dragonstone when he married Selyse, and we know they've had fertility issues while living there. The Targs didn't name Dragonstone the capital of the Seven Kingdoms---they went to the trouble to build themselves a brand-new castle (Aegon apparently built a fort atop Aegon's Hill before the Red Keep was constructed by Maegor---why didn't he just rule from Dragonstone?) From what I can tell, it seems that the Prince of Dragonstone tended not to actually live at Dragonstone. This might be evidence that there's something rather "wrong" with Dragonstone, which might be tied into dragonfire.

Other than Harrenhal, I don't recall any specific castle in Westeros being expressly hit by dragonfire, so it's difficult to extrapolate there. Have we ever been given an exact location for the Field of Fire? I'd be curious to see what's around that area.

Actually, if dragonfire produces some form of toxicity, that might explain why the Targs built the Dragonpit in the first place---why they stored the dragons underground even though they had to know it was stunting their growth. Maybe the earth "absorbs" this toxicity?

[rmholt]

There's something possibly fishy about the grey death given Val's reaction to Shireen. Wonder if JonCon brought something nasty to Westeros.

[Ciazio]

Still not enough proof.

Give me hair loss and I'm a believer.

The smith probably has less protection than knights in full plate armor,and nobody sleeps under a lead blanket.

But nice catch with the barren-ness.

You might be on to something, but I don't think radioactivity.

Don't mistake me sir, I'm not saying that Harrenhal's curse is the same as radiations. I'm saying that maybe GRRM took inspiration from the effetcts of radiations for part of the effects of the curse. Moreover, I know well that we use lead and not iron/steel as a defence against radiation. As last thought, the "curse" affects even who owns the castle for a week. That being said, is magic we are speaking of, GRRM can do what he wants in his book :cool4:

Obviously, the most striking connection is the possible one between dragonfire and bareness (and greyscale).

I'd like to know more about that book Roose burned.

If I need to go crackpot I'd say that the book that Roose read in Harrenhall has something to do with the Doom and Hardhome's destruction. The reason? Radiations = nuke = weapon (Valyria's Doom looks like a nuclear explosion).

Roose has to rule over a North that don't likes him... what's better than a nuclear explosion in White Harbor (Hardhome style) to make everyone kneel?

Maybe too cracked pots here :lmao:

[The Mother of The Others]

add to this how Daenerys, who plays with like 8 dragons and doesn't wash her hands, is barren. (or was foretold to be barren, and then we saw In Dance perhaps the first proof of how she'll never birth a live baby).

also, look at what happened to the rest of the Targs who spent a lot of time around dragons. Unstable.

and you've got the hardhome and valyria nuclear explosion type events.

You know how nuclear reactions keep going? What if the stone of Harenhal is still thrumming with the energy of all the dragon breath that got unleashed there. Dragonfire cooked the structures, and they kept on quietly cooking with radiation long after the visible fires were extinguished. Harenhal is still a hot spot, and all sorts of things go wrong there because this cauldron of a castle is making people's physiology go haywire.

And tying the dragons into deeper physics like this can't hurt, considering their presence nudges magic into being. Like they're a nuclear furnace powering the entire region and then individual magic users steal WiFi access from the dragons' emanations. And nuclear dragons would also be more likely to hold the key to solving the problem of the seasons maybe.

[Ciazio]

also, look at what happened to the rest of the Targs who spent a lot of time around dragons. Unstable.

You know how nuclear reactions keep going? What if the stone of Harenhal is still thrumming with the energy of all the dragon breath that got unleashed there. Dragonfire cooked the structures, and they kept on quietly cooking with radiation long after the visible fires were extinguished. Harenhal is still a hot spot, and all sorts of things go wrong there because this cauldron of a castle is making people's physiology go haywire.

Even Daenerys is becoming a little mad... is it related to her dragons?

Moreover.... what happened in Duskendale that made Aerys mad? Did the Darklyn force Aerys to try and hatch some dragon eggs?

[LittleDragon8]

Even Daenerys is becoming a little mad... is it related to her dragons?

Moreover.... what happened in Duskendale that made Aerys mad? Did the Darklyn force Aerys to try and hatch some dragon eggs?

Could be that they looked up in a dark, tiny space and taunted him all the while he was locked up in there. It doesn't take much to drive someone mad, especially if said person isn't psychologically strong to begin with.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Wow... :stunned:
It's very creative !! :laugh:

[Nudu]

We could relate Targ madness to the Incest. But theory really makes sense.

[Mithras]

Well the curse also seem to make people go crazy and get killed violently. I think the curse is magical.

[Lyse Stark]

Let's start saying that this is not a "theory" of mine about Harrenhal, this thread is just a gathering of facts that stroke me whilst re-reading the books.My purpose is to try and discover what kind of reasoning made GRRM before coming out with the description/consequences of Harrenhal's curse and to figure out on what bases he may have builted it.So - long breath - let's start:Harrenhal was held by 6 noble families and all of them extinguished whilst living in the castle or after living there for a long time.I exclude Clegane, Hoat, Bolton, Slynt, Baelish and others because they never "lived" there, they just occupied the castle for some weeks or none at all.Clues:N°1:The Whents, of all the 6 families cited above, are the one of which we know more. Many of the Whent's women were sterile, with the notable exception of Lady Minisa, who went to live in Riverrun and still had some miscarriages and stillborn children.N°2:Thanks to Jaime, we know that even Pia, one of Harrenhal's serving girl, is barren. In AFFC, after having told his squire that if he loved her he should have bedded her, Jaime thoughts something like this:Moreover, Jaime says often that the girl has never travelled afar from the huge castle.N°3:Thanks to Gendry, we also know the only long-living man in the castle: the smith. The only one perpetually surrounded by heavy metal.Conclusion:Take this with a pinch of salt: we, the readers, have knowledge of something that, in the long run, can cause death and bareness of the people living nearby. To protect yourself from this material's emissions you need a heavy metal cover.You can see where I'm going, right? Yes, "uranium" and "nuclear energy".Questions:Is Harrenhal infested by some sort of "nuclear magic"?Is it built over a mine of "uranium"?Is the "nuclear curse" caused by the dragonfire bath the castle has suffered during Aegon's conquest?Is the curse related with the book Roose Bolton read and burnt in his room's fireplace?Obviously, I'm not saying that the "curse" has the same exact effects of nuclear radiations, just that some of them reminded me of radiations. In example, there are no evidences of mutations (though there are between the men living near Valyria, but this is another story).

Now this brings to mind to me of Chernobyl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

I believe that Chernobyl was a disaster magnified by human ineptitude, critical failings and the fact that the USSR tried to cover it up.

Now how can Old Valyria be a Chernobyl disaster? I believe it have do with the fact that the Valyrian used slavery, and they become proud and arrogant. I also believe that at the time the Doom occurred I believe they disregarded warnings from others that their actions would bring their downfall. Anyway it occurred, and Valyria was wiped out.

Now how do this relates to Chernobyl?

I believe that the leaders disregarded some safety protocols that should have been in place. They were on the top of the world, and they thought themselves the masters, when in fact they should've heeded the warning signs that pointed to their folly. And they thought their slave were expendables. Now I believe that at the time Old Valyria fell, there were numerous slave revolts, and the Faceless Men had been established recently. The FM probably set up the slave revolts as a possiblity to weaken Valyria, then they sabotaged the mines in order to make Valyria collapse upon itself.

[Chatty Duelist]

So Dragons = Flying Godzillas?

Interesting and plausible nonetheless.

[RumHam]

(Aegon apparently built a fort atop Aegon's Hill before the Red Keep was constructed by Maegor---why didn't he just rule from Dragonstone?)

Actually I think Aegon and Aenys did most of their ruling from Dragonstone. This is from a report on the sons of the dragon reading:

Aegon ruled at King's Landing until it became clear that the ramshackle pile of wood and earth that was Aegonfort was entirely unsuited as his seat of power. He moved the family back to Dragonstone and ordered Aegonfort razed and a proper castle built in its place. Only the foundations and tunnels of the future Red Keep had been completed when Aegon died.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/83614-bubonicon-45/page-3#entry4885720

Also didn't Maegor build the Dragonpit? I somehow doubt his goal was to protect the city from radiation.

[spunken en eggs]

its creative en "barren" does appear a lot in the quotes, one little think that bugs me is.

how did the valyrians have a prosperes society for 5000 years, when (any thing touches by) this fire would sterilize in weeks.

en if dragon's are fire mad flesh, this would take the fun out of being a dragonrider, just like a nuclear cellphone is not smart, ( if u want kids)

do we expect to see TMNT coming from harenhall?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I don't think it's radioactive anymore...