From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IX

[Grail King]

Here you go Grail King:

http://asoiaf.wester...as-snow-castle/

There is some great discussion in it.

I was a Lit major in college and loved every minute of it, I'm sure you will too. This place is very addictive indeed. :)

Yes, I have the same reaction to Bran's chapter. I just re-read it a month or so ago and it was just as lovely to me as the first time I read it.

Thank you.

[TNine]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Baelish

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Clegane

House Clegane has the status of a "Landed Knight", while House Baelish has the status as a Noble House.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight#Types_of_knights

Landed Knight

Petyr is one of the lowest of the low lordlings, but is still a Lord, while Sandor can only ever be a Ser (unless granted Lordhood or if he marries up).

House Baelish was founded by Petyr's great-grandfather, who became a hedge knight, and his grandfather was eventually granted land and became a landed knight. Eventually, they were promoted to less lordlings, which is what Petyr was born to.

These are, by no definition, the same thing. They are pretty close, as a Landed Knight is the highest tier of knights (above things like household guards or hedge knights) while House Baelish is a poor house with little in the way of lands, wealth, or historical prominence.

[Lady Lea]

In the end it won't matter if Sansa is disinherited since Rickon and Bran are still alive and will inherit before her.

It matters, in that if someone kills Bran and Rickon, or something happens to them, she still has a claim. Disinheriting her would make her a useless political match, she'll only be marriageable if her brothers give her a dowry, someone is interested in bringing some nobility to their House, or it's a love match. For example, the Lannisters or the Tyrells would no longer be interested, because they already have money/name. But the Manderlys might be interested in her all the same, since they would benefit from a stronger tie to the North - that is, of course, if they don't mind her reputation.

Now, I was thinking about the whole "Lady Lannister"/"dwarf's leavings" thing. Sansa is already seen as both these things, if she is in fact disinherited that would put her in a terrible position in the "marriage market". Who would want to marry a dwarf's leavings? A Lannister associate? It might be that she'll be pressured to marry into the North to get rid of the Lady Lannister reputation, but I really doubt she will comply. Bran would never make her, anyway. This could open an oportunity for her to choose who she wants to marry, and it wouldn't look so strange if what she came up with was a Landed Knight. Sandor wouldn't mind her reputation. He's got a worse one himself. But he would have to show allegiance to the North, otherwise it would look like she was marrying a Lannister - again.

[brashcandy]

He's got a worse one himself. But he would have to show allegiance to the North, otherwise it would look like she was marrying a Lannister - again.

Well as we all know, Sandor thought he had some valuable info/service to provide for Robb, and specifically mentioned being granted a lordship for it, so perhaps this plot point is still very relevant.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

It matters, in that if someone kills Bran and Rickon, or something happens to them, she still has a claim. Disinheriting her would make her a useless political match, she'll only be marriageable if her brothers give her a dowry, someone is interested in bringing some nobility to their House, or it's a love match. For example, the Lannisters or the Tyrells would no longer be interested, because they already have money/name. But the Manderlys might be interested in her all the same, since they would benefit from a stronger tie to the North - that is, of course, if they don't mind her reputation.

Now, I was thinking about the whole "Lady Lannister"/"dwarf's leavings" thing. Sansa is already seen as both these things, if she is in fact disinherited that would put her in a terrible position in the "marriage market". Who would want to marry a dwarf's leavings? A Lannister associate? It might be that she'll be pressured to marry into the North to get rid of the Lady Lannister reputation, but I really doubt she will comply. Bran would never make her, anyway. This could open an oportunity for her to choose who she wants to marry, and it wouldn't look so strange if what she came up with was a Landed Knight. Sandor wouldn't mind her reputation. He's got a worse one himself. But he would have to show allegiance to the North, otherwise it would look like she was marrying a Lannister - again.

Wyman Manderly only has granddaughters - Wynafryd is next in line to inherit after her father. (Speaking of heiresses!) So unless there are Manderly cousins, there are no male Manderlys in that generation. Though she could be married to someone much older or younger - Lysa had no problem trying to fix her up with Sweetrobin. There was that one Lannister (Tyrek?) who married a baby who was an heiress.

Sansa is potentially - if Edmure dies childless or any child of his dies young - heiress to Riverrun as well as being a Stark. The Stark name has cachet, and she has enough connections across enough Great Houses to still be a player in the marriage market. I remember Cersei rejecting Petyr Baelish's proposal that he marry Sansa because he wasn't well-born enough. Whether she was already plotting Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, who knows?

Now if Sansa winds up disinherited this will be an opportunity for her to seize the day and marry whom she wants. She's already said she is sick of being sought after for her claim, and despairs of ever being married for love. I do not know if this will result in a "Be careful what you wish for" situation where she has no claim on anything whatsoever but is free to be married for love, OR if she marries for love despite her claim. (All I know is I want her to be happy!) And yes, if she does marry Sandor he is going to have to prove himself a good Northman. Start lovin' those Old Gods and hard winters, Sandor! :)

I wonder if the main obstacle for a Sansa + Sandor marriage or open paramourship will be that Lannister connection rather than Sandor's birth and status. It may paradoxically be the magic key for Sansa to be free to marry who she wants - no-one will want a Lannister's leavings.

On the other other hand, if there's a full-scale Others attack, wights galore in the Riverlands, and dragons scorching the earth in the south, anyone north of Dorne may be so screwed by Forces Larger Than Humanity that birth and status will matter little and less and it becomes more important to band together in order to stay alive, and later, have kids to replenish the population.

[Lady Lea]

Well as we all know, Sandor thought he had some valuable info/service to provide for Robb, and specifically mentioned being granted a lordship for it, so perhaps this plot point is still very relevant.

I totally agree, maybe that line was even foreshadowing. He would be very useful to Bran and Rickon because of his battle experience (and even experience as a commander). Of course there are other lords who have experience in the North, but with the old Karstark dead, Bolton's cloak turned, Bran not being able to walk and Rickon being too young, they can't afford to turn away anyone useful.

Wyman Manderly only has granddaughters - Wynafryd is next in line to inherit after her father. (Speaking of heiresses!) So unless there are Manderly cousins, there are no male Manderlys in that generation.

Oh, I was only using them as an example of a House that would benefit from the liaison, I didn't mean to say that they had actual people who would be interested. Though, isn't the fat lord Manderly single? I can't remember.

Sansa is potentially - if Edmure dies childless or any child of his dies young - heiress to Riverrun as well as being a Stark. The Stark name has cachet, and she has enough connections across enough Great Houses to still be a player in the marriage market. I remember Cersei rejecting Petyr Baelish's proposal that he marry Sansa because he wasn't well-born enough. Whether she was already plotting Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, who knows?

Oh yes I forgot about Riverrun. But then again if nothing changes she doesn't have that either, even with Edmure alive, because the Tullys are no longer the lords of the Riverlands, they are exiled lords. I believe Cersei was already planning a Lannister marriage for Sansa (not to Tyrion though). She says in her POV that she'd have married her to maybe Lancel.

Now if Sansa winds up disinherited this will be an opportunity for her to seize the day and marry whom she wants. She's already said she is sick of being sought after for her claim, and despairs of ever being married for love. I do not know if this will result in a "Be careful what you wish for" situation where she has no claim on anything whatsoever but is free to be married for love, OR if she marries for love despite her claim. (All I know is I want her to be happy!) And yes, if she does marry Sandor he is going to have to prove himself a good Northman. Start lovin' those Old Gods and hard winters, Sandor! :)

I wonder if the main obstacle for a Sansa + Sandor marriage or open paramourship will be that Lannister connection rather than Sandor's birth and status. It may paradoxically be the magic key for Sansa to be free to marry who she wants - no-one will want a Lannister's leavings.

I agree, definitely. And the part in bold is my main concern. He already showed that he would completely turn over to the Stark side, when he told Arya of his plans re: Robb, but he would have to do something very significant for the North to accept him.

On the other other hand, if there's a full-scale Others attack, wights galore in the Riverlands, and dragons scorching the earth in the south, anyone north of Dorne may be so screwed by Forces Larger Than Humanity that birth and status will matter little and less and it becomes more important to band together in order to stay alive, and later, have kids to replenish the population.

Excellent point.

[brashcandy]

I agree, definitely. And the part in bold is my main concern. He already showed that he would completely turn over to the Stark side, when he told Arya of his plans re: Robb, but he would have to do something very significant for the North to accept him.

Hmmm, Thoros of Myr tells him the Red God isn't through with him yet, so this might be where he proves his utility somehow, I don't know :) If he's aligned with the forces of fire this presents an opportunity to battle the Others perhaps... but I don't think it's going to be as straightforward as that.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I think Arya will play a big part in this. I mean if they learn that he saved her multiple times (RW, confrontation with Gregor's men, and possibly even from the BWB considering the path they seem to be taken), that could easily change some minds. Plus, it will help Arya's forgiveness arc that either started or at least received major development with Sandor.

[Lady Lea]

Hmmm, Thoros of Myr tells him the Red God isn't through with him yet, so this might be where he proves his utility somehow, I don't know :) If he's aligned with the forces of fire this presents an opportunity to battle the Others perhaps... but I don't think it's going to be as straightforward as that.

I think Arya will play a big part in this. I mean if they learn that he saved her multiple times (RW, confrontation with Gregor's men, and possibly even from the BWB considering the path they seem to be taken), that could easily change some minds. Plus, it will help Arya's forgiveness arc that either started or at least received major development with Sandor.

Both are good possibilities. I like the idea about Arya a lot. There is also the (crackpot?) theory that Sandor could potentially be the one to smuggle Sansa out of the Eyre.

[Caro99]

KittensRBD,

I remember Cersei rejecting Petyr Baelish's proposal that he marry Sansa because he wasn't well-born enough. Whether she was already plotting Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, who knows?

i don’t think Cersei was planning on marrying her to Tyrion at the time Petyr asked for her hand. She was intending her to marry Joff until Marge became a widow and I think Tyrion proposed the tyrell match to win over their alliance, and cersei was at first reluctant saying how joff was promised to sansa and that marge was older and a widow and she even told Tyrion he better pray Joff would like Marge. But as Lady Lea said, Cersei may have started thinking about whom she could marry her off to if Joff didn’t want her down the road.

Lady lea

It might be that she'll be pressured to marry into the North to get rid of the Lady Lannister reputation, but I really doubt she will comply. Bran would never make her, anyway.

I agree he wouldn’t force her to marry someone she doesn’t want, and he wouldn’t expect her to go through with the match, but I have a feeling that if he is the lord of winterfell he might not allow her or at least give her his blessing to marry whomever she chose (yeah, I’m thinking of sandor here ;)) Idk why I think rickon might have less of a problem with sansa marrying sandor than bran would though.. If Edmure dies before producing an heir and Sansa becomes the heir to Riverrun as well, then I think things with Sandor would get more difficult. Not only geographically speaking (the north’s isolation would be a bonus for them trying not to bring too much attention to themselves) and because I think Sandor would be happy in the north. No big scheming treasonous courts like in KL; no one caring if you have a Ser before your name; hard work and a way simpler life is what I think would appeal to his everyday life, so please Edmure, among other reasons, do have an heir!

I like the idea also of his journeys with Arya ending up being of help when he is trying to clear his name, but I fear that it is known the Red God isn’t done with Sandor yet. I don’t want him to die L but I agree with someone who mentioned earlier how it wouldn’t be healthy for Sandor to kill his brother. Particularly not after the recovery at the QI.

[Kittykatknits]

I wonder just how apocalyptic Martin plans to be with the threat of the Others because I think it has bearing on their relationship. Sansa could forge her freedom in a post-w5k environment, but it might require her to remain as Alayne Stone. If the devastation of the Others is serious enough however, then birthright and social standing and all that becomes negligible. What matters is having strong unions that can begin the process of rebuilding, and healing the ravaged land. This is where the personal needs to be highly valued, because it's the only way one would form strong political ties once more. A happy, productive relationship regardless of social status might actually be encouraged and nurtured.

I'm following up with this from earlier today as I've wondered the same thing. As I had originally said, I'd love some sort of apocalypic story as I'm just a sucker for them but I don't think it's going to be that bad really. It's pretty much conjecture at my point but I'm expecting the situation to be more intense than it was post-w5K. We saw a shortage of heirs in some places and the ending of some family lines, such as the Darry family. I'm expecting much more of the same, just in larger numbers. We will see more houses without heirs and more Houses going extinct. The big question is how much this might blur social boundaries. We got a hint of possibilities with Alys Karstark and her marriage. I'm hoping there are more examples of this.

MTE. If she truly has no claim because she was disinherited, then the better match would actually be an upstart house with lots of money who needs some "legitimacy" on its line. Now, of course Sandor doesn't really have that much money especially since that bastard Dondarrion stole his winnings, but Sansa could possibly get her hands on some of Littefinger's fortune like it's been theorised.

What does MTE stand for?

[brashcandy]

Are you interested in seeing Mychel Redfort and Ysilla too Kittykat?

[Kittykatknits]

1. No I've not seen it, but I definitely would like to.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69551-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-vi/page__st__200#entry3364084

This is the first post and there are several follow-ups.

[Lady Lea]

What does MTE stand for?

my thoughts exactly

sorry, I know I use too many abbreviations, but it's a habit I picked up on ONTD that is really hard to kick.

[Kittykatknits]

I have noticed this too. I am actually starting to wonder if Dany will get to Westeros at all though. If not, I've had crackpot thoughts that after the Others apocalypse she will be the leader of Essos and will ally with someone as leader in Westeros (Sansa/Arianne, Sansa in the North Arianne in the South), with Asha as a leader of the iron islands, and the whole entire asoiaf world will be unified in the end. The ladies will unite - Rawr!

She will make it to Westeros, I'm sure of. Martin confirmed there will be a second dance of the dragons so she will confront Aegon at some point.

Now, I was thinking about the whole "Lady Lannister"/"dwarf's leavings" thing. Sansa is already seen as both these things, if she is in fact disinherited that would put her in a terrible position in the "marriage market". Who would want to marry a dwarf's leavings? A Lannister associate? It might be that she'll be pressured to marry into the North to get rid of the Lady Lannister reputation, but I really doubt she will comply. Bran would never make her, anyway. This could open an oportunity for her to choose who she wants to marry, and it wouldn't look so strange if what she came up with was a Landed Knight. Sandor wouldn't mind her reputation. He's got a worse one himself. But he would have to show allegiance to the North, otherwise it would look like she was marrying a Lannister - again.

Wyman Manderly only has granddaughters - Wynafryd is next in line to inherit after her father. (Speaking of heiresses!) So unless there are Manderly cousins, there are no male Manderlys in that generation. Though she could be married to someone much older or younger - Lysa had no problem trying to fix her up with Sweetrobin. There was that one Lannister (Tyrek?) who married a baby who was an heiress.

I'm trying to think who there is in the North for Sansa to marry actually. There are no Cassels. Glovers, Manderly, Boltons, Mormonts, Umbers, Dustins, or Ryswells. Actually, now that I think about it, not sure there a lot of eligible men in the North. Not sure if this will mean anything or not but it's something to think about. If the purpose is to strengthen ties in the North, it would have to be a male Stark to do it. Am I missing anything here?

[The Mother of The Others]

What's ONTD?

[Kittykatknits]

Are you interested in seeing Mychel Redfort and Ysilla too Kittykat?

I'm a bit curious but not certain if we will meet them or not. In previous threads, we've talked about the impact of the patriarchial system of Westeros and how it can hurt both men and women. If Mychel did love Mya as much as she loved him, it casts doubt on how happy his marriage can be. I'd expect they would be respectful of each other but not much else, the word dutiful sounds appropriate here. Of course, we only know the story from Mya so he may not have loved her as much as she loved him.

If we see Mychel, the most revealing thing is how Mya reacts. That might tell us quite a bit on how likely she is to develop a relationship with Lothur and how easy the possibility of some Sansa match making would be.

[Lady Lea]

What's ONTD?

Oh No They Didn't, a livejournal community

I'm trying to think who there is in the North for Sansa to marry actually. There are no Cassels. Glovers, Manderly, Boltons, Mormonts, Umbers, Dustins, or Ryswells. Actually, now that I think about it, not sure there a lot of eligible men in the North. Not sure if this will mean anything or not but it's something to think about. If the purpose is to strengthen ties in the North, it would have to be a male Stark to do it. Am I missing anything here?

Looking into this now.

Bolton - turned cloak, doesn't count

Cassel - only Beth left. If she's still alive.

Cerwyn - only a female heir left.

Condon - apparently there is a Ser Kyle Condon

Dustin - only Lady Barbrey

Fenn - unknown

Flint of Flint's Finger - unknown

Flint of Widow's Watch- only Lady Lyessa. Her son and heir died at the RW

Glover - Robett is married to Sybelle Locke. They have a daughter (1 yo) and a son (3 yo). Robett's brother Galbart is currently missing (Robb sent him to find Greywater Watch)

Hornwood - there is a 12-yo Larence Snow, and one Lady Berena Hornwood, sister-in-law to the late Lady Donella (who Ramsay killed)

Ironsmith - unknown

Karstark - Harry Karstark is being held captive, but is single and young. His heir is Alys.

Lake - unknown

Lightfoot - unknown

Locke - Lord Ondrew is an old man and toothless. Sybelle Locke is married to Robett Glover (see above)

Manderly - lord Wyman is immensely fat, but also single. His son Ser Wylis is married. Ser Wylis has two daughters: Wynafryd (19) and Wylla (15). There is a cousin, Ser Marlon Manderly.

Marsh - Bowen is at the Wall. Otherwise, unknown

Mollen - Hallis Mollen is captain of the guard at Winterfell. Whereabouts unknown

Mormont - Lady Maege is missing. She has four living daughters. There's also Jorah I guess.

Moss - unknown

Overton - unknown

Poole - only Jeyne left

Reed - Lord Howland is married. There is Meera and Jojen

Ryswell - there is Lord Rodrik but he's probably old because he's Lady Dustin's father. He has 3 "quarrelsome cousins" (all 3 male)

Slate - unknown

Stout - petty lords (vassals to House Dustin). There is a Lord Harwood and a Ronnel Stout

Tallhart - Lady Eddara is 9. Her heirs are her cousins Brandon (14) and Beren (10)

Umber - the Greatjon is a captive of the Frey's. Crowfood is old. Whoresbane.

Waterman - unknown

Wells - unknown

Whitehill - unknown

Woolfield - Leona Woolfield is married to Wylis Manderly.

FINAL TALLY: there are currently 8 Ladies. Could possibly turn into more. 13 unknowns. Only about 5 marriageable men for a young woman: Larence Snow, Jojen Reed, Harry Karstark (best option by far), Brandon Tallhart (an heir, but good enough), this Ser Kyle Condon maybe (we don't know much about him). Maybe Mollen? I don't know how old he is or even if he is still alive.

[Candor]

http://asoiaf.wester...00#entry3364084

This is the first post and there are several follow-ups.

This is a lovely write-up, and I do agree with your thoughts here. Great way to look at the symbolism. Initially when you brought up the flower topic, my thoughts sprang to the occasion in AGoT where Sansa and Arya were at breakfast (?) and Sansa gets snippy with Arya. Arya throws an orange at her, ruining her ivory gown, the one that Sansa received from Cersei upon betrothal to Joffrey. It seems as though Sansa is foisted with several symbols relating to womanhood and menstruation from early on.

I do have to wonder what the red rose will come to mean, if any, though the idea of it being a symbol of Sansa's chastity sounds likely. AND, probably because I am conicidentally coming upon a Littlefinger sexploitaition scene in my AGoT watching marathon, that reminds me of another curious occasion. Of Sansa and LF at the Eyrie, with the snow castle:

LF: Can I come into your castle?

Sansa: Be careful, don’t…

LF: Break it?

Sansa may or may not understand the gist of what's being said, but we can be certain LF does. It's these incidents that make me feel that Sansa, when she does "lose it" it will be rather a big deal.

[Kittykatknits]

This is a lovely write-up, and I do agree with your thoughts here. Great way to look at the symbolism. Initially when you brought up the flower topic, my thoughts sprang to the occasion in AGoT where Sansa and Arya were at breakfast (?) and Sansa gets snippy with Arya. Arya throws an orange at her, ruining her ivory gown, the one that Sansa received from Cersei upon betrothal to Joffrey. It seems as though Sansa is foisted with several symbols relating to womanhood and menstruation from early on.

I do have to wonder what the red rose will come to mean, if any, though the idea of it being a symbol of Sansa's chastity sounds likely. AND, probably because I am conicidentally coming upon a Littlefinger sexploitaition scene in my AGoT watching marathon, that reminds me of another curious occasion. Of Sansa and LF at the Eyrie, with the snow castle:

Sansa may or may not understand the gist of what's being said, but we can be certain LF does. It's these incidents that make me feel that Sansa, when she does "lose it" it will be rather a big deal.

Sansa's maiden status is pretty much a plot line all by itself at this stage in the story. There is her marriage to Tyrion, fruit imagery, flower imagery, her talk with Cersei when she gets her moon blood, her moment on the rooftop with Sandor, her story about her mother losing it to LF,burning her mattress, this LF scene, the potential for Lolly's fate in the riots, her attack by Marililion, and more. It's going somewhere, I'm sure of it. There is so much build up around it, I'm quite positive it will be a big deal. It's going to be very much about her and her choice.