76 replies to this topic

[Winter's Prince]

Robb sent Maege and one of the Glovers aboard some ships to find Howland Reed and by ADWD; Jon's first chapter, she was back at Bear Island and had denied Stannis Baratheon as her king.

Now I know that after returning to her home she had to have learned about Robb's Stark's demise. A little later she probably learned that Jon had been elected the new NW's LC, but she had the will, she was a faithful stark loyalist why didn't she go to the wall and deliver it to Jon.

Now I just thought of this as I was typing, could it be that she is waiting until after the Battle of Winterfell to deliver it or could it be that she thinks Jon is too much like his brother and father to forsake his duties and vows

or could it be that Jon is not named as Robb's successor

So why hasn't she delivered the Will

[kissdbyfire]

No no no no.

[MarcherLord]

Correct me if I'm totally wrong but wasn't it one of her daughters/nieces on Bear Island who refused Stannis, and not Maege?

I've always just assumed that she's been hanging with the Reeds all this time, going guerrilla.

[Kaukolainen]

Isn't it her 10-year-old daughter or so who renounced Stannis? I believe Maege and the Glover are still on their way. I can't really say whether she'd still deliver the letter after hearing of Jon's new rank.

[kissdbyfire]

1- Maege Mormont did not return to Bear Island.
2 - it is never said anywhere that Maege and Glover have the will. What we know for sure is that they have the other document with false intel, in case they are captured.
3 - Dacey Mormont, Maege's daughter, was at the RW and died with Robb. Trust me, Maege is plenty aware of the RW.

[kissdbyfire]

And yes, it was her youngest daughter, Lyanna Mormont, who sent the reply to Stannis.

[Jolene Brown]

Did anyone submit a question about the Will on the google moderated GRRM's questions list?  I can't remember.  If not, I might try to write one.

[kissdbyfire]

I think I've seen something there but I'm not 100%.

[A wilding]

Yes, it was a 10 year old girl who told Stannis to sod off:

Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK.

Those Northerners are seriously cool ...

[a13506]

Besides there's another Mormont with Stannis.

[Kaukolainen]

I'm not entirely sure but was it actually said in the book that Jon's name was on the actual will? I remember having a feeling during read that there was possibly someone else's name. I know Robb implied it strongly, but if I recall correctly, there were also some lines that made me question it.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Yeah Maege is chillin at Howl's Moving Castle with The Man Himself and my boy Galbart right now. Blackfish and Jeyne Westerling (and maybe even a child of Robb Starks) may or may not be there as well, and iirc Mormont and Glover soldiers are with them too. I'm honestly thinking at some point in TWoW, in no small part because Maege probably isn't thrilled with the Boltons because of Dacey, we're gonna see those forces come up from Greywater and bring the hammer down on the Dreadfort. I'd like to think they'd then allign themselves with Stannis and go up to the wall. I think Howland knows Meera and Jojen are north of the wall - somehow Jojen knew that's where the crow is, so he'll come looking for them. And when he runs into Jon along the way, what better man than him to explain to Jon the truth.

[kissdbyfire]

a13506, on 03 August 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Besides there's another Mormont with Stannis.

Yes, Alysanne.

Kaukolainen, on 03 August 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'm not entirely sure but was it actually said in the book that Jon's name was on the actual will? I remember having a feeling during read that there was possibly someone else's name. I know Robb implied it strongly, but if I recall correctly, there were also some lines that made me question it.

No, it's never said who he named.

[Betty Amazing]

Kaukolainen, on 03 August 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'm not entirely sure but was it actually said in the book that Jon's name was on the actual will? I remember having a feeling during read that there was possibly someone else's name. I know Robb implied it strongly, but if I recall correctly, there were also some lines that made me question it.

I think the general assumption is that it's Jon, but we don't actually know. x

[Brony Stark]

I think it was Lyanna Mormont wrote Stannis. I actually chuckled at that part, poor Stannis, being dissed by a ten year old.

[Buried Treasure]

Kaukolainen, on 03 August 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'm not entirely sure but was it actually said in the book that Jon's name was on the actual will? I remember having a feeling during read that there was possibly someone else's name. I know Robb implied it strongly, but if I recall correctly, there were also some lines that made me question it.

I feel similarly but we are definately in the minority opinion...

In answer to the question, the name on the will is never stated; Robb holds a piece of paper which he says is a will, the chapter closes before anybody has time to read / sign it, and Cat never thinks of the subject again.

Robb told Cat during their discussion at Oldstones that he planned to name Jon as heir presumptive. Then, some days later he presents the will and no names are mention. Cat seems to think Jon has been named but crucially we never learn of her reading / being told the contents of the will. My feeling is that what Robb told Cat at Oldstones was what he wanted, but he is emotional at that time and they are pretty much shouting at each other by the end. When Robb presents his orders and the will he is calm, in command of himself and the situation and more likely to be thinking of what will benefit his kingdom than what he personally wants - which IMO may not be Jon as heir. Maybe that is the discrepency you were also picking up on?

Before Dance came out I was all prepared to be proven wrong when Maege and Glover turned up on the Wall. But they never did and there has now been plenty of time for that to happen. I'm more convinced than ever that they aren't headed there and that implying Jon was named was an intentional misdirection by George.

[E-Ro]

If it is not jon then who? There is no one else cousins in the vale is the biggest joke to ever issue from cats mouth, they are not starks the blood of winter does not run in their veins.

[StarkSupporter]

When I red that sequence, only Jon came to mind. With Robb thinking that both Bran and Rickon died at Winterfell, Sansa married to a Lannister, and Arya dead or missing, Jon was his only choice. We know that Robb and Jon got along very well, and were trained together, and lived together. We know from Bran, that Ned wanted Robb and Jon to think of each other as brothers, and they most certainly did, so Jon seems the likely choice. IIRC, there is a scene where Cat thinks something like "No not him", which I took to be her disdain for Jon (or what he represents).

On a side note, wouldn't it be funny if Robb had named Harrion Karstark is heir, since they do share a common ancestry, and Robb killed his father, (both taking something from Harrion, and granting him something), and now heir to the North. I don't think this is at all true, but its a thought that made me chuckle.

[larrytheimp]

If it's not Jon how crazy would it be if it was Stannis?

[Buried Treasure]

E-Ro, on 03 August 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

If it is not jon then who? There is no one else cousins in the vale is the biggest joke to ever issue from cats mouth, they are not starks the blood of winter does not run in their veins.

StarkSupporter, on 03 August 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

On a side note, wouldn't it be funny if Robb had named Harrion Karstark is heir, since they do share a common ancestry, and Robb killed his father, (both taking something from Harrion, and granting him something), and now heir to the North. I don't think this is at all true, but its a thought that made me chuckle.

Not funny at all, in all seriousness Harrion makes a decent candidate compared to Jon.

He's from a cadet house of the Starks. That history would allow him to subsume his own family name in order to become a Stark, in a way it would be unthinkable for say a Mormont or an Umber to give up their family identity to become Starks. I do get that Karstarks are not Starks, but OTOH Snows are not Starks either, Robb is planning for a situation in which no actual Starks are available.

Harrion has family and hence heirs of his own. Robb is looking for stabilty in the succession and so needs to consider the possibilty his named heir may also die before begetting trueborn children. Robb hasn't heard from Jon in many months so as far as he knows Jon could be dead already (the Wall is known to be dangerous, he knew Benjen was missing). Robb also hasn't heard about Harrion in a couple of months, he knew he was with Bolton's army but we don't know if Robb knew Harrion was among the Duskendale captives - but Harrion is not so vital as the succession continues beyond him.

Harrion has not forsworn wives, lands and crowns. Robb suggests to Cat that he could bribe Jon out of the Watch, but this is not ideal. There is no known precedent for brothers being released; it would have been dishonourable to suggest it to the LC and Robb could not have been certain that the LC would choose pragmatism over honour or that Jon would choose the kingdom of the North over his vows. In practicle terms, would he have intended to buy Jon out just in case (then have him hanging around as a faintly dishonourable shadow in the event of Robb not dying before begetting heirs) or hope the LC would agree to releasing Jon only in the event of Robbs death? And where would Robb get his 100 men? Volunteers seems unlikely, conscripting his own troops would make him unpopular and no LC would be smart to accept 100 Lannister captives as such a violation of neutrality would justify the Lannisters sending a ship to the Wall to demand their return.

The Karstarks are in rebellion, and Robb doesn't want them to be - he knows the kingdom is stronger with all its great Houses united. Robb cannot make the Karstarks forgive him whilst he lives but in the event he dies they no longer have to hate him. Then having a Karstark succeed to the crown reunites the kingdom and gives it greater strength against the Ironmen and Lannisters. If Jon were to inherit then the Karstarks would not have particular reason to hate him but not would they have reason to love him. The kingdom would still be divided and hence weaker.

Edited by Buried Treasure, 03 August 2012 - 07:07 PM.