Jon Snow's future - wights and Melisandre

[yolkboy]

nvm

[yolkboy]

My threads keep disappearing with the 'time frame' problem... can someone just post any old reply so i know this thread hasnt fallen victim????

[greygnarl]

Hello saw you in Heresy.

[butterbumps!]

There's a couple of things with your theory I disagree with.

1. It seems that human wargs can't skin change into the dead; I don't believe that Jon's going to "save" his life energy by inhabiting a dead body. If that were the case, why not just stay in his own skin?

2. I don't think Jon's fatally wounded. If I had to guess, he might be facing a coma-like state, but I don't believe his injuries are mortal. Think about it- Bowen + Co. are not fighters, yet Jon is surrounded by tough allies (the Wildlings) and a giant who adores him. I'd wager that Wun Wun will make stew out of Jon's assassins, and that Jon's getting out of there alive.

3. It's minor, but Benjen isn't Coldhands. As Leaf said, Coldhands died "a long time ago."

4. Melisandre needs to have sex with someone in order to produce those shadow babies. Unless Jon (or someone) gives her their seed, shadow babies won't emerge.

5. Melisandre can't be Shiera Seastar. If she was Shiera, she would recognize Bloodraven, given the fact that they were lovers (which she doesn't). But more importantly, we know from her POV chapter that she was "Melony" a slave girl from Lot Seven.

[yolkboy]

There's a couple of things with your theory I disagree with.

1. It seems that human wargs can't skin change into the dead; I don't believe that Jon's going to "save" his life energy by inhabiting a dead body. If that were the case, why not just stay in his own skin?

Because if you're in a vessel THE PRECISE moment its killed, you die. Warging to a vessel thats already dead doesnt kill you. You become a 'Wight' in a dead vessel.

2. I don't think Jon's fatally wounded. If I had to guess, he might be facing a coma-like state, but I don't believe his injuries are mortal. Think about it- Bowen + Co. are not fighters, yet Jon is surrounded by tough allies (the Wildlings) and a giant who adores him. I'd wager that Wun Wun will make stew out of Jon's assassins, and that Jon's getting out of there alive.

I think several knives going into him would fatally wound him. Bowen and co. didnt aim to merely injure him. How else is he going to get out of his NW vows and be 'reborn'. He needs to be relieved of NW duty as he has to MARRY to fulfill the AA prophesy.

3. It's minor, but Benjen isn't Coldhands. As Leaf said, Coldhands died "a long time ago."

Coldhands might have died a long time ago, but if his body was frozen, Benjen could have taken the vessel a long time after.

4. Melisandre needs to have sex with someone in order to produce those shadow babies. Unless Jon (or someone) gives her their seed, shadow babies won't emerge.

You misunderstand, Mel bleeds when she gets sexually excited - seeing Bloodraven. Because in the past she has done shadow birth, her vagina bleeds when she is excited. I'm making no insinuation there will be a new shadow baby, its the price she pays for doing it previously.

5. Melisandre can't be Shiera Seastar. If she was Shiera, she would recognize Bloodraven, given the fact that they were lovers (which she doesn't). But more importantly, we know from her POV chapter that she was "Melony" a slave girl from Lot Seven.

She DOES recognize Blood raven, look at the 'he sees me' part of the Mel quote in the post. She gets sexually 'wet' everytime she thinks he's looking at her, though her wetness is now blood. The fact she was a slave called melony doesnt mean she wasn't also Shiera. Melony was her pseudonym, as is Melisande.

[butterbumps!]

1. Ok, here's the thing. Ghost is actually a lot closer to Jon the moment he's stabbed than the bodies in the Wall (which haven't been moved yet- Jon had just given the order to move them). Why would it make more sense for Jon to inhabit an already dead body than Ghost? Why do you think that a dying person would have better luck inhabiting an already dead body than the one his is currently in?

2. I hadn't thought that Jon was fatally wounded because the wounds being described graze his neck, his gut and his shoulder blades. He's hurt, but he's also surrounded by allies, and Bowen + Co. are not exactly competent fighters. I don't think that he needs to "get out of his vows" via death-- I think that's somewhat beside the point.

3. Where are you getting the idea that wargs can inhabit dead bodies? I think that this kind of magic is unique to the Others. Is there something that indicates that they can?

4. No, she doesn't seen to recognize Bloodraven so much as she recognizes "the Great Other." I think it's highly unlikely that she's actually Shiera Seastar, namely, because her back story places her as a slave with the name Melony.

[yolkboy]

In reply to Butterbumps.

1. Ok, here's the thing. Ghost is actually a lot closer to Jon the moment he's stabbed than the bodies in the Wall (which haven't been moved yet- Jon had just given the order to move them). Why would it make more sense for Jon to inhabit an already dead body than Ghost? Why do you think that a dying person would have better luck inhabiting an already dead body than the one his is currently in?

If your 'real' body dies and you warg into an animal you can never escape being in the animal. This happened to Orell IIRC.

2. I hadn't thought that Jon was fatally wounded because the wounds being described graze his neck, his gut and his shoulder blades. He's hurt, but he's also surrounded by allies, and Bowen + Co. are not exactly competent fighters. I don't think that he needs to "get out of his vows" via death-- I think that's somewhat beside the point.

I read into it that Johns wounds were fatal - atleast admit the possibility that they were.

3. Where are you getting the idea that wargs can inhabit dead bodies? I think that this kind of magic is unique to the Others. Is there something that indicates that they can?

Coldhands struck me as a Wight, the only difference being that he was 'good' when we'd assumed all whites were evil at that stage. The dynamics of becoming a wight have been left purposefully vague. Read my original post about frozen bodies containing 'life' to some degree. You couldnt warg into a burnt corpse.

4. No, she doesn't seen to recognize Bloodraven so much as she recognizes "the Great Other." I think it's highly unlikely that she's actually Shiera Seastar, namely, because her back story places her as a slave with the name Melony.

A thousand eyes was a nickname for Bloodraven. She metions a thousand eyed looking at her and then describes a manic state of mind.

Why are Jons last words concerning feeling "the cold", and why did George have Jon bring dead bodies into the ice cell??? What was their purpose towards the plot? Jon feels 'the cold' because suddenly hes transported into an ice cell with a corpse as a vessel.

[butterbumps!]

In reply to Butterbumps.

If your 'real' body dies you can never escape being in the animal. This happened to Orell IIRC.

But I think it's telling us that wherever your "soul" travels is where it will stay once your body dies. If I understand correctly, you're looking for a loophole whereby Jon can escape being in wolf form forever, right? I think the problem in Jon's spirit entering a dead body is that it doesn't really change anything- both Jon's body and his new host's body would be dead, and we're led to believe that this is the end of the cycle. I don't think a dead body would offer Jon much help.

A thousand eyes was a nickname for Bloodraven.

I see this as being a clue for the reader. Mel is literally seeing 1,000 eyes in her vision; she doesn't connect it to Bloodraven, though.

Why are Jons last words concerning feeling "the cold", and why did George have Jon bring dead bodies into the ice cell??? What was their purpose towards the plot? Jon feels 'the cold' because suddenly hes transported into an ice cell with a corpse as a vessel.

On the bodies in the ice cells, I think they're telling us a few things. For one, they were put there as a testament to Jon's commitment to figure out what's going on with the Others; he spends a lot of time in DwD researching the Long Night, how to fight the Others, what their motivations are. So the bodies in the Wall are kind of like Jon's desire to perform a "scientific" experiment to better know his enemy.

I think the other reason they're put there is for the reader. The fact that the bodies have not risen as wights is telling us something about the magic of the Wall. Somehow, those two wights were able to rise beyond the Wall and attack Mormont back in aGoT; for some reason, the wights IN the Wall do not rise. So I think it's telling us about the power in the Wall. Interestingly, those 2 bodies are about to be moved, which raises some questions.

Either way, I don't believe that they are put in the story to be vessels for Jon's literal resurrection.

[yolkboy]

But I think it's telling us that wherever your "soul" travels is where it will stay once your body dies. If I understand correctly, you're looking for a loophole whereby Jon can escape being in wolf form forever, right? I think the problem in Jon's spirit entering a dead body is that it doesn't really change anything- both Jon's body and his new host's body would be dead, and we're led to believe that this is the end of the cycle. I don't think a dead body would offer Jon much help.

If you warg into a dead body, the BODY may well be dead, but the 'spirit' inside it lives - in this case Jons spirit. Why do you think wights eyes go blue when theyve been 'possessed'? Its because theres something now living in the host, despite the fact the host is dead physically.

I see this as being a clue for the reader. Mel is literally seeing 1,000 eyes in her vision; she doesn't connect it to Bloodraven, though.

I say she knows its Bloodraven, and gets all kind of love induced emotions- 'agony, ecstasy, filling her' - sounds like the pinings of a love struck teenager almost.. HE is looking at me, then gets sexually excited and her vagina drips (albeit blood). Why does she bleed 'down her thigh', after seeing a thousand eyes, in your opinion?

Either way, I don't believe that they are put in the story to be vessels for Jon's literal resurrection

Agree to disagree. Most casual readers have forgotten about those bodies, and are truly wondering how on earth can jon get out of this one. It's a classic twist, of the type George regularly uses.

BTW ive added that i dont necessarily believe this will be the prophesised rebirth Jon will face.

I'm glad youre engaging Butterbumps, thanks!!

[y ddraig]

To be frank, I'm not even convinced of the 'Jon needs to die to have a loophole out of his NW vows' idea.

First, Jon doesn't seem like the loophole kind of guy to me. Second, if he doesn't jump at the chance of being Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, I need a little more convincing he'd happily leave the NW because he's really a Targaryen. I mean, why else would he need to be freed from his vows? Being AA and fighting the Others pretty much comes with the job description, after all.

[yolkboy]

To be frank, I'm not even convinced of the 'Jon needs to die to have a loophole out of his NW vows' idea.

First, Jon doesn't seem like the loophole kind of guy to me. Second, if he doesn't jump at the chance of being Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, I need a little more convincing he'd happily leave the NW because he's really a Targaryen. I mean, why else would he need to be freed from his vows? Being AA and fighting the Others pretty much comes with the job description, after all.

In my scenario, Jon isnt actually dying at all, just warging. He's ASSUMED dead by the NW.. He needs to leave the NW to fulfil the Azor Ahai prophesy because it claims he needs to put a sword through his WIFES heart, and therefore needs to MARRY. Can't do that in the NW. He also needs a Heros sword, in doing so will have to reject Longclaw. As we know, Joer Mormont wished Jorah to join the NW, and it doesnt look like a bad option for him at the moment. Mormont could take his vows, become 1000th LC of the NW and in his contractual forgiveness inherit Longclaw, his birth right. This would leave Jon needing a blade, he's now free to wield a magic sword, and that sword might or might not be Lightbringer.

PS... I have another part to this theory, explaining Jorah, Jons new sword, Jons origins, and the nights watch. Will post as soon as i can.

[Zabuza]

Ask Benjen Coldhands.

How is it that you will ask when Benjen is not Coldhands?

[pitakon]

its very great in westeros. a dead guy still has a future.

[ImpBeyondTheWall]

...

[Pugsley]

He needs to leave the NW to fulfil the Azor Ahai prophesy because it claims he needs to put a sword through his WIFES heart, and therefore needs to MARRY. Can't do that in the NW.

I'm not sure where you're getting that he must do this? The original Azor Ahai is said to have done so, but the prophesy about AA Reborn says:

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

No mention of sacrificing anyone. And even if he must, it doesn't necessarily follow that it must be a wife, but whomever is most dear to him. (Arya, perhaps?)

[yolkboy]

In reply To Pugsley

I'm not sure where you're getting that he must do this. No mention of sacrificing anyone. And even if he must, it doesn't necessarily follow that it must be a wife, but whomever is most dear to him.

my response....

Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer.

The 'Original' Azor Azhai IS the same as now. Time is a loop in this world, everything is a cycle. Thats why people can see into the future , and threre's prophesies (albeit jumbled and mistranslated). Everything has already happened.

If he poked his sword into Aryas' heart, i dont think it would make it 'on fire'.

I must say i think your onto something there, but that's another part of the story.

[yolkboy]

How is it that you will ask when Benjen is not Coldhands?

I believe he is. HOWEVER, the important part of this discussion is that we agree Coldhands was a wight, and he was a 'good wight'. The Benjen argument is irrelevent here, and maybe i shouldnt have mentioned it.

But coldhands = wight is what i'm saying.

PS not to stoke the argument, but which person would have know the 'north of the wall' so well and been so adept at dealing with conditions there when protecting bran, as Benjen - chief ranger, would have.

[Khal Jhaqo]

Jon isn't trained like the other warg that died a true death and tried to steal into the willing woman.

Hes most likely to go into ghost and just become a wolf.

Or Melisandre saves him somehow. In which case he becomes some creepy undead character like Catelyn Stark.

[yolkboy]

Jon isn't trained like the other warg that died a true death and tried to steal into the willing woman.

Hes most likely to go into ghost and just become a wolf.

Or Melisandre saves him somehow. In which case he becomes some creepy undead character like Catelyn Stark.

Jon has already warged into a body in the ice cell though.

"He never felt the fourth knife, only the cold..."

He never felt the 4th knife because he went somewhere else, and this place was very cold. It's the ice cell.

Why do you think George dropped the 'cold' line?

[Khal Jhaqo]

I just read the first Jon chapter in A Dance With Dragons again and the last page gives some clues.

Melisandre says "This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. you have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?"

"I know their names"

"Do not be so certain."

"It is not the foes that curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard and naked steel. It was very cold"

Who knows what the cold represents? could be cus its just friggin cold at the wall. but there is a possibility the fire lady saves his ass.